Why would God need a hell?

[lukecash12]

Tribulationem et dolorem

So you are just black and white then. Everyone is either a believer or a usurper and enemy of God? Clarify, else I'm not seeing it.

I'm not exactly speaking in terms just black and white. In Revelation 20, which I just quoted in this thread today, those not written into the book of life are judged according to their deeds. What is clear, though, is that there are only two masters and those who aren't written into the book of life clearly are enemies of God. They are at the very least ambivalent about, and opposed to God, not apathetic.

Er, look dude, if you're going to start going on about the early church then you should be aware that eternal torment was hardly the prevailing theology of the time outside of Carthage. Universal restoration was more to the front before Augustine and Constantine brought the notion to the forefront. Don't presume to speak on most Christians either because outside of the more fundamentalist bracket there's plenty who aren't doctrinally bound to accept any such thing.

Clearly you're referring to the element in early Christianity of accepting Origen's ideas about universal salvation; incidentally, it was under Origen's literary influence that Lucian taught Arius theology, who subsequently began the Arian controversy.

The historical record is clear in that the West, which propagated and accepted the Nicene Creed and canons, was a bastion against such ideas. Any involved study of Athanasius in particular will also reveal, beyond the controversy over Arian thinking that people predominantly associate Athanasius with, that not only was there a significant segment of Eastern bishops against such ideas (as well as others who disagreed with those elements in the substance of their writing, but were not so clear on the details because of complicated terminology, Eusebius being a prime example), but the laity resented Arian, Sabellian, Nestorian, Eutychian, and other such influences which took the wild, uncommitted fancies of Origen too far.

The Ecumenical Creeds were upheld, and there has always been substantial agreement on those details within the whole of Christendom. The majority Christians today worship in an older order church, and those churches which were part of the original schisms are unanimous on subject such as this. So, on the contrary, I'm not appealing to fundamentalist thinking, but what the majority of Christians believe.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I care about what God said he is going to do , its the Christians I don't listen to. God said in Isaiah 45:23, " I have SWORN by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness and shall not return to me void, that to me EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue shall confess." This is God making a holy vow to himself that every single human will obey him and follow him, which is the result of bowing and confessing- conversion!

The statement is not carrying all that freight you are importing. That every knee will bow and swear or confess is not in dispute. The fallen angels, the reprobate, will be confessing so in begrudging, fear and trembling submission to Our Lord's authority before consignment to everlasting punishment. Nothing in this passage teaches contrary to the full counsel of Scripture on the matter of everlasting punishment. The passage is not about conversion at all.

AMR

 

[Ben Masada]

Why would God need a place like this traditional eternal hell? Why would he co-exist with such a place in eternity? Does God need a garbage dump for humans? How and when did the grave become the traditional explination of hell?

To bury those who have come to the end of their lives.

 

[intojoy]

Why would God need a place like this traditional eternal hell? Why would he co-exist with such a place in eternity? Does God need a garbage dump for humans? How and when did the grave become the traditional explination of hell?

Don't worry about it my son

 

[Stuu]

Those who have not benefited from the Atonement are not capable of ever atoning for their own sin. An eternal hell is necessary because God absolutely must be satisfied. It is not monstrous of Him to exact something that He by all means deserves.

Not monstrous at all.

Not even a tiny bit fascist.

Stuart

 

[Totton Linnet]

Persons who sate their souls in evil whether human or demons deserve the eternal punishment they will get


If that is so awful...let them repent

 

[Totton Linnet]

God would be cruel and unjust if He did not warn them.


The hell deniers are cruel and unjust who say to the child rapers and murderers "go in peace, it will be well with you"

 

[Totton Linnet]

It is not what people do it is what they are

 

[Ben Masada]

It is not what people do it is what they are

I beg to disagree. As far as I am concerned, to me is not what people are but what people do that counts.

 

[oatmeal]

Why would God need a place like this traditional eternal hell? Why would he co-exist with such a place in eternity? Does God need a garbage dump for humans? How and when did the grave become the traditional explination of hell?

The term often translated "hell" is the word sheol or hades, it refers to a dead body being in the grave.

 

[chrysostom]

Why would God need a place like this traditional eternal hell? Why would he co-exist with such a place in eternity? Does God need a garbage dump for humans? How and when did the grave become the traditional explination of hell?

to believe in eternal punishment
you must believe
either
God wants you to suffer eternally
or
God can do nothing about it
and
you cannot believe either one

 

[daqq]

Originally Posted by daqq
Listen to the Testimony of Yeshua in the Gospel accounts and what he says concerning all these things: "hellfire", or "everlasting fire", or "fire into the age"

Everlasting fire doesn't last forever.

...as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7 NKJV)
​

It's the result of the fire that lasts forever, not the fire itself.

You left off the next statement in my quote which says, "HOWEVER ONE WANTS TO PUT IT", which essentially meant, to me, however one happens to view hellfire: whether eternal, everlasting, into the age, to the end of the age, or whatever one thinks that it means or should mean. You made it appear as if I was saying something that I was not. Why would you do such a thing? You make your points at other peoples expense? Is that love? Some of the black and white literalists here, such as Lon, would say and have said that if it is not love then it is hate. It is not that I'm angry but hope you see the folly in all of this including the black and white literism that comes from reading poetic and allegorical language with strict literalism glasses.

Listen to the Testimony of Yeshua in the Gospel accounts and what he says concerning all these things: "hellfire", or "everlasting fire", or "fire into the age", however one wants to put it, such is prepared for "tares", (demons and their doctrines) "thorns" that choke out the Word, (demons and their doctrines) "goats" on the left hand side, (demons and their doctrines) and any other similar allegories and analogies including the devil and his angels, (Matthew 25:41). Testimony is SPIRIT. Whenever a person speaks words, whether for the good, or whether for the evil, they CANNOT be taken back or retrieved, (again, testimony is SPIRIT). It is symbolism and allegory. The "old man", spirit of the world, prince of the power of the air, spirit of antichrist, or whatever symbolic analogy or allegory applies; those go into destruction, (not human beings).

Yea those allegories are still withering and screaming in everlasting pain and agony.

That's right! How many realize that Lazarus was one of the little ones? How many even care to go understand who or what one of these little ones concerns?

Luke 16:27-17:4 KJV
27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
1. Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2. It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
3. Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Luke 17:1-4 is actually the "punch line" conclusion of the entire visual. The wealthy anthropos speaks to father Abraham but likewise has his own father back at his house. His own father, plus five brethren, plus himself, are a total of seven kings, shut.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-6 KJV
1. Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4. That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5. Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6. That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord [YHWH] is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

Matthew 18:7-11 KJV
7. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! [Luke 17:1]
8. Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10. Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven [the Avenger of all such little ones, 1 Thessalonians 4:6].
11. For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Yeshua Says: "From henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three", (Luke 12:52) which five divided are now ten little ones in one house. Every person has five on the right, and five on the left: three against two, and two against three, like ten little virgins with their lamps, five wise, and five foolish: and the same are the ten lamps in the house which Solomon built, five on the right hand side, and five on the left, (1 Kings 7:49). People understand not because they care not enough to diligently seek, search out, and understand the parables, allegories, idioms, and sayings of the Master Teacher Yeshua, which parables speak of ourselves and our own house-body-temples, and the maintenance thereof while the House Master over all is as if "away in a far journey". The evil right eye, or the offensive right hand, or the foot always running swiftly into mischief, these are like three "evil shepherds", (Zec 11:8-15, 16, 17) that destroy the flock and need to be plucked out, cut off, bundled for burning, etc., etc. These are our own "evil members" upon our own "earth-land", (every man has his land) as Paul likewise says, "Mortify your members which are upon the earth-land". They are not literal people, otherwise why immerse for the dead? that would be immersing for the literal dead, (and Paul does not mean that).

 

[Dialogos]

Uh, yeah, because everyone knows there's a sign there and sees it just the same as you right? Your analogy fails on so many levels.

Everyone sees at least one.

Romans 1:19

People like you seem to think that everybody "chooses" their fate in life and it's not surprising that people like you have a flippant and callous attitude towards those others that suffer interminaby under your belief.

First, yes. Everyone chooses their fate. If you don't believe this then you don't believe the bible (Isaiah 53:6).

Second, I don't have a callous attitude toward those who are driving 90 miles per hour toward hell. In the words of Spurgeon, "“If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our dead bodies. And if they perish, let them perish with our arms wrapped about their knees, imploring them to stay. If Hell must be filled, let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go unwarned and unprayed for.”

But telling people that it is just ok to drive 90 miles an hour off of a cliff because God might bail you out at the last minute isn't loving. God put the sign there for a reason and He doesn't lie.

Third, what exactly do you mean by "others that suffer interminaby under your belief."??

My beliefs are just that, my beliefs. When did our culture get so whiny that we think that what one person believes is harmful to another.

If you don't like my beliefs, then don't believe them. If you don't like what I say in my posts, then there is an easy solution to that problem, don't read them.

If you don't like the book, stop turning the pages.

If you don't want to know what bible really has to say on this topic, nobody is stopping you from plugging your ears.

Are you a Calvinist btw?

Darn tootin'

:thumb:

Cos if you are not everyone would even have the chance to see a 'road out' sign anyway let alone act on it...

Wrong. Everyone sees at least one. The problem isn't a lack of signage the universal problem is that drivers the world round don't care to heed the signs. So God enables some to trust the signage and turn around.

That's Calvinism.

The most twisted, sickening and darkest depths of the human psyche - "hell" in the contorted doctrine of *traditional* Christianity.

This is simply an illustration of the fallacy of appeal to consequences.

You don't like the notion of hell therefore you cherry pick the bible for passages that you can twist like pretzels into substantiating universal reconciliation all the while totally ignoring passages that clearly dispute your claims.

There have been numerous posts here pointing out scriptural evidences that contradict your claims. But, by and large, you ignore these and make appeals based on whether or not you think hell is "psychologically" desirable.

But this tactic is merely jousting at windmills. Either eternal punishment is true or it isn't. That question isn't going to be settled by appealing to armchair psychology, its going to be settled with sound exegesis.

 

[serpentdove]

It seems like this world cannot escape from the Christian influence on just what hell really is; its the grave; period! But Christianity has turned it into an eternal place of punishing; a stunning transformation that has stuck itself into the human consciousness and belief system...

God did that (Eccl 3:11). Tell him thanks. :thumb:

See:

What is free grace? What is Free Grace Theology?

What is Unitarian Universalism?

As a reminder is Mickiel number 47 on Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) in "The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians) category. :burnlib:

 

[serpentdove]

Why would God need a place like this traditional eternal hell? Why would he co-exist with such a place in eternity? Does God need a garbage dump for humans?

How many humans have you treated like garbage? :Shimei: Eccl 10:2, Jn 10:10

“It is easier to build strong children, than to repair broken men.” ~ Frederick Douglass

 

[serpentdove]

It does not make sense to me, if a human rejects God and lives that way for 70 years, what kind of legal or fair justice would then punish that human for an eternity; the punishment does not fit the crime, and it does not match the reputation of God.

Too bad you don't know God (Deut 32:4, Ro 9:22).

"Too bad." :chz4brnz: ~ Seth Brundle, The Fly

 

[serpentdove]

I agree hell is the grave....This teaching on eternal hell suffering has gotten out of hand and it spreaded like wild fire. It does not even match anything that God would do. But it got pinned on God.

You'll straighten us out (Ge 3:4). :dizzy:

 

[serpentdove]

[Hell] ...ts my view that Christianity created it, not God. The human that rejects God, needs God far more than believers do; they need his Mercy, Love, Forgiveness and renewal, they don't need the Christian hell...

They don't (Eze 33:11). :thumb:

Jesus loves you (Jn 3:16). Jesus is willing to save you (2 Pe 3:9). Repent (Eze 18:30-32; Ac 17:30). Believe (Mk 9:23).

 

[jamie]

In Revelation 20, which I just quoted in this thread today, those not written into the book of life are judged according to their deeds.

Salvation is by grace through faith, not by a person's deeds.

Mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:13 NKJV)​

 

[Mickiel]

Too bad you don't know God (Deut 32:4, Ro 9:22).

"Too bad." :chz4brnz: ~ Seth Brundle, The Fly

I don't know God, but I would like to. I am not so presuming and I go by scripture; but I know my time to know him is coming; the calling of God is just a matter of time and will engulf everyone. Jesus said he came NOT to " Call" the righteous, ( or believers), but sinners, ( or unbelievers, unrighteous people who don't know God) to repentance." This is good news for people like me who don't know God; Jesus came " To Call" us too! I know many Christians don't like this and will seek to dismiss it, but Christianity does not control this massive calling of God.

Why would God need a hell when he plans on calling everyone? Jesus was lifted up, or crucified, and he promised to draw, or drag, all humans to him. A stunning promise from Jesus which fills me with hope when Christians look to dim that hope.