Why Calvinist Cannot Defend Their Doctrine of a Limited Atonement

[fishrovmen]

There is a universal atonement where Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2 and is now "King of Kings and Lord of Lords".

And then there is an individual atonement, John 3:16.

Those that believe that Jesus is their savior and the savior of the whole world will receive the individual atonement, "He that believes on him is not condemned" John 3:18.

Robert,
When you say that there will be an individual "atonement", do you mean that Jesus' offering for atonement will be applied to individuals who have faith? Or do you mean that each individual must offer their own faith to complete the "atonement" that Jesus offered? Or something else?

 

[Robert Pate]

So when you say that Jesus is the savior of the world, what you mean is that He saved the world from immediate Judgment?

When Adam sinned God could have wrapped up the whole universe in one big ball of fire, but he didn't because he is long suffering.

Instead, he gives Adam and Eve (humanity) another chance. John 3:16.

Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus God now sees all things in his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been destroyed because of the death and crucifixion of Christ, Romans 6:6.

We who are Christians have been crucified with Christ and have been resurrected with Christ. God now sees us as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. Our judgment has already taken place in Christ.

When Christ, who is our life appears, we will appear with him, Colossians 3:4.

When Christ appears the dead in Christ will arise first and then those that are alive will follow, 1 Corinthians 15:52.

But the lost, those that have rejected Jesus Christ and his Gospel will be resurrected unto the resurrection of the damnation. They will go off into the great White Throne judgment and will be condemned, Revelation 20:11, 12.

 

[beloved57]

When Adam sinned God could have wrapped up the whole universe in one big ball of fire, but he didn't because he is long suffering.

Instead, he gives Adam and Eve (humanity) another chance. John 3:16.

Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus God now sees all things in his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been destroyed because of the death and crucifixion of Christ, Romans 6:6.

We who are Christians have been crucified with Christ and have been resurrected with Christ. God now sees us as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. Our judgment has already taken place in Christ.

When Christ, who is our life appears, we will appear with him, Colossians 3:4.

When Christ appears the dead in Christ will arise first and then those that are alive will follow, 1 Corinthians 15:52.

But the lost, those that have rejected Jesus Christ and his Gospel will be resurrected unto the resurrection of the damnation. They will go off into the great White Throne judgment and will be condemned, Revelation 20:11, 12.

You quote all those scriptures and dont believe or understand not one of them !

 

[Brother Ducky]

Right,

And it fits with scripture. Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. In doing this Jesus has reconciled ALL THINGS unto God because God sees ALL THINGS in Christ, Colossians 1:20.

It seems to me that your universal atonement is at best a meaningless concept. It is an atonement that does not atone. That God does not wipe all of us out upon our first sin is a testimony to his grace and love. But to say that his patience is "atonement" is just silly.

But if there is a universal atonement and an individual atonement, is there also a universal being in Christ and an individual being in Christ, or a universal reconciliation and an individual reconciliation?

Based on what you have done here it would fit your theology perfectly, and yet would be as meaningless as your universal and individual atonement.

 

[Robert Pate]

It seems to me that your universal atonement is at best a meaningless concept. It is an atonement that does not atone. That God does not wipe all of us out upon our first sin is a testimony to his grace and love. But to say that his patience is "atonement" is just silly.

But if there is a universal atonement and an individual atonement, is there also a universal being in Christ and an individual being in Christ, or a universal reconciliation and an individual reconciliation?

Based on what you have done here it would fit your theology perfectly, and yet would be as meaningless as your universal and individual atonement.

We know nothing outside of the scriptures.

The Gospel is spiritual, Romans 7:14. It cannot be understood by reasoning or human interpretation.

The Gospel is a declaration by God that his Son Jesus Christ has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil, Colossians 2:15 and because of this God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ, Acts 2:36.

God is at peace with the world because God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20. This is why Paul said, "And you are complete in him" Colossians 2:10.

Jesus Christ is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17. All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ", Ephesians 2:6. God only sees them as being in Christ.

When Christ returns everything is going to change. The unbelievers will be resurrected, judged and condemned.

 

[fishrovmen]

When Adam sinned God could have wrapped up the whole universe in one big ball of fire, but he didn't because he is long suffering.

Instead, he gives Adam and Eve (humanity) another chance. John 3:16.

Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus God now sees all things in his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been destroyed because of the death and crucifixion of Christ, Romans 6:6.

We who are Christians have been crucified with Christ and have been resurrected with Christ. God now sees us as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. Our judgment has already taken place in Christ.

When Christ, who is our life appears, we will appear with him, Colossians 3:4.

When Christ appears the dead in Christ will arise first and then those that are alive will follow, 1 Corinthians 15:52.

But the lost, those that have rejected Jesus Christ and his Gospel will be resurrected unto the resurrection of the damnation. They will go off into the great White Throne judgment and will be condemned, Revelation 20:11, 12.

So do you agree with my conclusion in post #81?
And could you comment on what "individual atonement" means?

 

[Robert Pate]

So do you agree with my conclusion in post #81?
And could you comment on what "individual atonement" means?

All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners have been crucified and resurrected with Christ, Romans 6:3-10.

God now sees them as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

They have been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18.

 

[beloved57]

We know nothing outside of the scriptures.

The Gospel is spiritual, Romans 7:14. It cannot be understood by reasoning or human interpretation.

The Gospel is a declaration by God that his Son Jesus Christ has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil, Colossians 2:15 and because of this God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ, Acts 2:36.

God is at peace with the world because God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20. This is why Paul said, "And you are complete in him" Colossians 2:10.

Jesus Christ is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17. All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ", Ephesians 2:6. God only sees them as being in Christ.

When Christ returns everything is going to change. The unbelievers will be resurrected, judged and condemned.

You teach that millions whom God sees in Christ winds up in hell lost in their sins!What happened?

 

[Dialogos]

To me it means human beings and the whole created order.

I see, so when John says, "Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (1Jo 2:15 ESV)"

He is saying that if we love human beings and the whole created order, the love of the Father is not in us?

:idunno:

 

[fishrovmen]

All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners have been crucified and resurrected with Christ, Romans 6:3-10.

God now sees them as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

They have been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18.

I've read those verses before, but they don't explain what Jesus saved the whole world from, nor do they explain what an "individual atonement" is.

 

[Robert Pate]

You teach that millions whom God sees in Christ winds up in hell lost in their sins!What happened?

Like you, they didn't call on Christ to save them.

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

 

[Robert Pate]

I've read those verses before, but they don't explain what Jesus saved the whole world from, nor do they explain what an "individual atonement" is.

Jesus saved the world from sin, death and the devil and threw the gates of heaven wide open so that now, All, Anyone, Everyone that does nothing more than calling on the name of the Lord can be saved, Romans 10:13.

If Christ had not atoned for the sins of the whole world no one could be saved and there would not be a Holy Spirit.

 

[beloved57]

Like you, they didn't call on Christ to save them.

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Christ believed for them, so what happened?

 

[fishrovmen]

Jesus saved the world from sin, death and the devil and threw the gates of heaven wide open so that now, All, Anyone, Everyone that does nothing more than calling on the name of the Lord can be saved, Romans 10:13.

If Christ had not atoned for the sins of the whole world no one could be saved and there would not be a Holy Spirit.

So, let's just say that Jesus actually atoned for every sin of every person. Then why the imputation of sins in the judgment?
Maybe you can show me the verse(s) that show an "individual atonement" that I can study?

 

[beloved57]

Jesus saved the world from sin, death and the devil and threw the gates of heaven wide open so that now, All, Anyone, Everyone that does nothing more than calling on the name of the Lord can be saved, Romans 10:13.

If Christ had not atoned for the sins of the whole world no one could be saved and there would not be a Holy Spirit.

If He saved them then why do they die in their sins lost and unsaved? What happened?

 

[Robert Pate]

Christ believed for them, so what happened?

That is another Calvinist fairy tale that you cannot support with scripture.

 

[beloved57]

That is another Calvinist fairy tale that you cannot support with scripture.

He obeyed the Law for them!

 

[Robert Pate]

So, let's just say that Jesus actually atoned for every sin of every person. Then why the imputation of sins in the judgment?
Maybe you can show me the verse(s) that show an "individual atonement" that I can study?

You don't have to say it, the Bible teaches it, 1 John 2:2.

The judgment of unbelievers is when their sins will be imputed back to them because they were not crucified and resurrected with Christ.
They died in their sins. If you die in your sins you will be resurrected in your sins.

 

[fishrovmen]

You don't have to say it, the Bible teaches it, 1 John 2:2.

The judgment of unbelievers is when their sins will be imputed back to them because they were not crucified and resurrected with Christ.
They died in their sins. If you die in your sins you will be resurrected in your sins.

So if I understand you correctly, the atonement of Christ is only effective when supplemented by our faith?

 

[Brother Ducky]

You don't have to say it, the Bible teaches it, 1 John 2:2.

The judgment of unbelievers is when their sins will be imputed back to them because they were not crucified and resurrected with Christ.
They died in their sins. If you die in your sins you will be resurrected in your sins.

Can I reasonably assume that you believe in a universal propitiation and an individual propitiation? If so where is this taught?

And you have not been very forthcoming about your Scriptural support for the re-imputation of sin/s. I would expect there to be at least five distinct to-the-point references and yet you have given none.