When Did the Disciples of Jesus Stop Observing the Old Testament Laws?

[clefty]

Since Jesus came, his blood is the only blood that matters.

God says so.

Make no mistake...it was His blood that only mattered long before He came and was killed. That other blood only mattered because it foreshadowing Him and was symbolic of faith and obedience.

Caino is arguing that all these blood letting sacrifices were man made rituals and ceremonies.

But is was never the blood itself or the burning flesh that took away sin or cleansed or purified LITERALLY but that we obeyed His instructions literally...and He was pleased by the faith that was proven by it. "Rather mercy than sacrifice"

Even the Israelites idolized these forms and functions and made too much of them...by taking the ark of the covenant into battle with them thinking it would be a magic ray gun they could use...the bronze serpent worshipped long after its function over being another example.

The shedding of blood (nevermind it was for unintentional sins)was ALWAYS only symbolic until the One Who "takes away the sin of the world"actually did so. And John wasn't wrong, because He shed His own blood and was innocent, He will at the end actually destroy sin and any stained with it...taking it away...

 

[God's Truth]

Make no mistake...

That is my intention.

it was His blood that only mattered long before He came and was killed.

His blood was NOT shed until it was shed on the cross, when it was shed.

That other blood only mattered because it foreshadowing Him and was symbolic of faith and obedience.

That other blood was from earthy man, Abraham from whom Jesus was blood related. The blood of animals was just a shadow, a teaching tool.

Caino is arguing that all these blood letting sacrifices were man made rituals and ceremonies.

God the Father commanded them.

But is was never the blood itself or the burning flesh that took away sin or cleansed or purified LITERALLY but that we obeyed His instructions literally...

That is right.

and He was pleased by the faith that was proven by it. "Rather mercy than sacrifice"

Well, not quite, for He was displeased by those who came and gave an animal to sacrifice, because of those who were not sorry for their sins. They did a righteous act of giving a blood sacrifice for sin, but they were not sorry.

Even the Israelites idolized these forms and functions and made too much of them...

Idolized them? If you are doing right then it is not wrong.

 

[Ben Masada]

Math stays the same, the Jews were dwindling so they needed more people to help defend themselves. They were really forced as a practical matter to graft "gentile dogs" onto their sect. But in the temple the lowly Gentiles still had their own court.

True, but there is no forced conversions among the Jews.

 

[Ben Masada]

Because of their dwindling numbers the Jews had to begin to take on Gentile converts, but they viewed them with contempt.

True that we always take on Gentile converts who chose to join God's Covenant with His People; but this of viewing them with contempt, you must read Isaiah 56:1-8 to see how mistaken you are. The opposite is rather true that they get a name better than sons and daughters.

 

[Ben Masada]

gentiles - they need to follow the "LAW BY HEART" to act. Thus they have to act with conscience and moral code, even in the case of under the New Covenant. They are however expected to fail at some point for God's Grace to apply to save them. As the New Covenant by no means says that you can sin at will. You won't be judged by the measurement of Law though.

Every one was, is and will be judged by the measurements of the Law. That's the method used by all judges as they have copied from the Mosaic Law.

Similarly, the Jews need to observe Mosaic Law to the best of knowledge except for the part no longer necessary after the coming of Jesus, such as those laws of sacrifices. They still need to observe whatever characterized them as the JEWS.

I agree with you though many Jews won't. I am against a returning of animal sacrifices. They caused more damages to the Jews than if they never existed. BTW, HaShem never commanded that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel if you read Jeremiah 7:22.

They however have the advantage of choosing not to be a Jew. That is, if they choose not to observe the Mosaic Law, they are then actually the gentiles governed by conscience and moral code to act. God's Grace will pick up from where they failed the Mosaic Law if they choose to observe so, or where they failed as gentiles do if they choose not to observe.

Every one has the right to choose no longer to be a Jew. After all, we all have been granted with the attribute of Freewill. Hence, we do not adopt forced conversions.

Christians don't observe OT Laws (Mosaic Law) since the time when there are no longer Jews inside our churches. Conflicts occurred during the time when both Jewish and gentile Christians co-existed as the Jews demanded that the gentile Christians need to follow their laws to act. The apostles such as Paul and Peter had fought back to clarify this many times.

Paul was never an apostle. The Apostles had to be always 12. Never 11 or 13. When Judas got lost, it was Mathias who was chosen to join the apostolic group, not Paul. (Acts 1:26)

 

[God's Truth]

True, but there is no forced conversions among the Jews.

Look at yourself. You have no God, no purpose, no hope.

 

[clefty]

That is my intention.

good good...

His blood was NOT shed until it was shed on the cross, when it was shed.

yes but it was His shed blood which was the plan when it was spoken that it was from her Seed.

That other blood was from earthy man, Abraham from whom Jesus was blood related. The blood of animals was just a shadow, a teaching tool.

yes ok

God the Father commanded them.

Yes but there remain those who think it was all cleverly rewritten and revised to write Him and themselves into it...

Well, not quite, for He was displeased by those who came and gave an animal to sacrifice, because of those who were not sorry for their sins. They did a righteous act of giving a blood sacrifice for sin, but they were not sorry.

Yes another way the Law failed to perfect. As you note, the actions were done but not sincere.

His sacrifice was to prove His goodness and worthiness to be loved and worshipped. The accuser who from the beginning accused Him to be a merciless God, and not a good God, was at the cross proven wrong.

That we are saved is actually a by product of oHis vindicating and validating Himself His goodness. Knowing this one desires to worship in gratitude knowing they were saved from the accuser's lies and death.

Now we don't HAVE to obey we wish to obey and repent. He is proven Himself a good God.

Idolized them? If you are doing right then it is not wrong.

They loved their temple more than the One who gave it...

So it's the "doing it right" that is the tricky part...and why I am wishing to better understand...

 

[clefty]

Every one was, is and will be judged by the measurements of the Law. That's the method used by all judges as they have copied from the Mosaic Law.



I agree with you though many Jews won't. I am against a returning of animal sacrifices. They caused more damages to the Jews than if they never existed. BTW, HaShem never commanded that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel if you read Jeremiah 7:22.l



Every one has the right to choose no longer to be a Jew. After all, we all have been granted with the attribute of Freewill. Hence, we do not adopt forced conversions.



Paul was never an apostle. The Apostles had to be always 12. Never 11 or 13. When Judas got lost, it was Mathias who was chosen to join the apostolic group, not Paul. (Acts 1:26)

The issue became does one do the Law to be saved or "chosen". These Laws were used to identify themselves and benefit from the perks and privileges they had on earth from being a member of the tribe. I.e. No usury debt forgiveness etc

The early church struggled with those who intended gentile believers become members of the tribe, and not just saved.

Circumcision was never required to be saved. Faith led one to observance, not of Moses'law but obedience to the One who gave it. It is not an unbearable burden when one considers what is gained. It becomes a burden when the gain is not enough. Becoming a tribe member is vastly inferior to becoming a citizen of His kingdom.

Why do any of this to become merely one of the branches that were broken off?

 

[God's Truth]

good good...



yes but it was His shed blood which was the plan when it was spoken that it was from her Seed.


yes ok



Yes but there remain those who think it was all cleverly rewritten and revised to write Him and themselves into it...




Yes another way the Law failed to perfect. As you note, the actions were done but not sincere.

His sacrifice was to prove His goodness and worthiness to be loved and worshipped. The accuser who from the beginning accused Him to be a merciless God, and not a good God, was at the cross proven wrong.

That we are saved is actually a by product of oHis vindicating and validating Himself His goodness. Knowing this one desires to worship in gratitude knowing they were saved from the accuser's lies and death.

Now we don't HAVE to obey we wish to obey and repent. He is proven Himself a good God.





They loved their temple more than the One who gave it...

So it's the "doing it right" that is the tricky part...and why I am wishing to better understand...

I can't see how someone could put down God the Father in the Old Testament.

 

[Caino]

True, but there is no forced conversions among the Jews.

I didn't say forced, the Jews had to begin to lighten up a little in their general attitude towards non-Jews, Gentiles. They were forced to do this as a practical matter because their numbers were dwindling, hence they couldn't mount an adequate defense.

In the religion of Jesus all men and women are the sons and daughters of God. The segregated, "chosen people" attitude that evolved between Abraham to Judaism became a stumbling block.

 

[Caino]

True that we always take on Gentile converts who chose to join God's Covenant with His People; but this of viewing them with contempt, you must read Isaiah 56:1-8 to see how mistaken you are. The opposite is rather true that they get a name better than sons and daughters.

Yea, sure, and all Christians today love all Muslims because Jesus said "love one another the way I have loved you".

My coverage about this issue is not as black and white as it may appear. The Jews did attempt to formulate protocol for dealing with non-Jews of Pagan religions but to say their attitude was a clean as Isaiah's idealism is simply not the case.


Gentile, Jewish Encyclopedia

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6585-gentile

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yea, sure, and all Christians today love all Muslims because Jesus said "love one another the way I have loved you".

My coverage about this issue is not as black and white as it may appear. The Jews did attempt to formulate protocol for dealing with non-Jews of Pagan religions but to say their attitude was a clean as Isaiah's idealism is simply not the case.


Gentile, Jewish Encyclopedia

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6585-gentile

Allow me to expose you as a "Urantia Cultist" and non-Christian or Jewish. So, posters will know who they're dealing with.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Caino belongs to a "UFO Cult."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Math stays the same, the Jews were dwindling so they needed more people to help defend themselves. They were really forced as a practical matter to graft "gentile dogs" onto their sect. But in the temple the lowly Gentiles still had their own court.

No doubt you got that information from your Cosmic friends from another planet.

 

[clefty]

I didn't say forced, the Jews had to begin to lighten up a little in their general attitude towards non-Jews, Gentiles. They were forced to do this as a practical matter because their numbers were dwindling, hence they couldn't mount an adequate defense.

I guess you don't care to read the opening peice. It proves that the tribe accussed Peter and Paul for doing exactly what you are claiming. They were slanderous false witnesses who claimed the apostles were teaching the law was made easier. The apostles proved otherwise teaching nothing changed and lived accordingly. Peter kept kosher and Paul the sabbaths.

In the religion of Jesus all men and women are the sons and daughters of God. The segregated, "chosen people" attitude that evolved between Abraham to Judaism became a stumbling block.

That is true as the chosen loved their temple not the its intent.

They were made branches broken off.

Gentiles replaced them and sadly made subsequent changes for better branding among European pagans.

At best it was a tag team to keep chosen elite and Gentiles second class citizens...but the majority and it "rules" as a counterfeit.

But yes a tag team collaboration.

 

[Caino]

I guess you don't care to read the opening peice. It proves that the tribe accussed Peter and Paul for doing exactly what you are claiming. They were slanderous false witnesses who claimed the apostles were teaching the law was made easier. The apostles proved otherwise teaching nothing changed and lived accordingly. Peter kept kosher and Paul the sabbaths.





That is true as the chosen loved their temple not the its intent.

They were made branches broken off.

Gentiles replaced them and sadly made subsequent changes for better branding among European pagans.

At best it was a tag team to keep chosen elite and Gentiles second class citizens...but the majority and it "rules" as a counterfeit.

But yes a tag team collaboration.

I did read the OP and again I will point out that Jesus' original gospel wasn't an extension of Judaism, he left the Laws of Moses and the "chosen people" theology of Judaism to itself and the nation of Israel to it's inglorious end.

But this has nothing to do with the original motive of Judaism in Babylon to begin to convert Gentiles for the sheer numbers.

 

[clefty]

I did read the OP and again I will point out that Jesus' original gospel wasn't an extension of Judaism, he left the Laws of Moses and the "chosen people" theology of Judaism to itself and the nation of Israel to it's inglorious end.

But this has nothing to do with the original motive of Judaism in Babylon to begin to convert Gentiles for the sheer numbers.

Yes good He didn't change anything nor did the early apostles Paul included. The changes came after but not to make more "chosens" but to be less a superstitious OT cult.

Now it's back in Babylon's captivity?

When they returned to build the walls they wouldn't even let the locals help but you seem to think they wished to assimilate them?

We are not talking about the Hebrews or the nation of Israel but an elite tribe that even taxed its own brethren to worship at "their" temple.

This caused a civil war and destroyed temporal Israel forever.

Ask Rome how much these "chosen" wished to include outsiders....they would rather hide in caves...still do lol

 

[Hawkins]

Jesus came to earth and he came for the Jews who already belonged to God first by obedience and faith.

The rest of the Jews were cut off.

Jesus came first for the Jews with faith and when Jesus was crucified---then ALL can come to God through Jesus.

First to the Jew then to the Gentile. Same salvation but Jews who already belonged to God first.

Why shouldn't Jesus come to his first?

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Acts 3:26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

Romans 2:9
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."


Study those scriptures. With the measure you use it will be measured to you and more.

You only need to answer the last question. Do you follow conscience or moral code to act or not?

Law is not abolished if you are under that covenant the law is 'attached' to. That's why even right now you need to follow your conscience to act instead of sinning at will. Abiding by the law however won't save you, it's not the problem of the law but it's your problem as you cannot abide by it to be saved. That's why we have to rely on the faith to be saved as specified by the New Covenant.

"Saved by faith" by no means says that we can sin at will. It simultaneously says that we still need to abide by the Law effective in an older covenant, we don't rely on that covenant to be saved though.

Law is thus in effect all the times for you to obey, or otherwise you can sin at will. Obeying law however won't save you because you are incapable of obeying the law in its full. To put it another way, the older covenant for you is still effective such that you are subject to this older covenant since you are born. You still need to do everything it specifies, including the Law 'attached'. However, God knows that you won't be saved by this older covenant thus you have the option to choose a newer one. Or you can refuse to choose the newer one such that you will be judged by the older one which is in effect all the times.

Even after you choose the newer covenant, you still need to follow the law specified in the old one to act. That's why you still need to follow your self conscience to act. If law is removed completely, it only means that no law is in effect to limit your behavior thus you can sin at will (as law is already not there).

You can refer Law as being "removed" only in the perspective that Law is no longer used to judged us Christians in the final judgment.

You need to re-study the whole Bible for you misunderstanding to be corrected.

 

[Hawkins]

Every one was, is and will be judged by the measurements of the Law. That's the method used by all judges as they have copied from the Mosaic Law.

I agree with you though many Jews won't. I am against a returning of animal sacrifices. They caused more damages to the Jews than if they never existed. BTW, HaShem never commanded that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel if you read Jeremiah 7:22.

Every one has the right to choose no longer to be a Jew. After all, we all have been granted with the attribute of Freewill. Hence, we do not adopt forced conversions.

Paul was never an apostle. The Apostles had to be always 12. Never 11 or 13. When Judas got lost, it was Mathias who was chosen to join the apostolic group, not Paul. (Acts 1:26)

It's not about freewill. It's about how God classifies the Jews. If you refuse to abide by the Mosaic Law, you are already not a Jew in God's eyes.

You are not a Jews in terms of the covenant given to the Jews, even though you are a Jew in terms of bloodline. The bloodline is only human perspective in defining who a Jew is.

Revelation 2:9 (NIV)
I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

The above verse says that, those Jews by bloodline are not Jews in God's eyes.

 

[Caino]

Yes good He didn't change anything nor did the early apostles Paul included. The changes came after but not to make more "chosens" but to be less a superstitious OT cult.

Now it's back in Babylon's captivity?

When they returned to build the walls they wouldn't even let the locals help but you seem to think they wished to assimilate them?

We are not talking about the Hebrews or the nation of Israel but an elite tribe that even taxed its own brethren to worship at "their" temple.

This caused a civil war and destroyed temporal Israel forever.

Ask Rome how much these "chosen" wished to include outsiders....they would rather hide in caves...still do lol

Yes, the Jews began offering conversion to Gentiles as early as the Babylonion period. There was a special court for the Gentile converts in the Temple.