When Did the Disciples of Jesus Stop Observing the Old Testament Laws?

[Ben Masada]

It's not about freewill. It's about how God classifies the Jews. If you refuse to abide by the Mosaic Law, you are already not a Jew in God's eyes.

You are not a Jews in terms of the covenant given to the Jews, even though you are a Jew in terms of bloodline. The bloodline is only human perspective in defining who a Jew is.

Revelation 2:9 (NIV) I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

The above verse says that, those Jews by bloodline are not Jews in God's eyes.

If you ask me, I am even ready to discard the concept of a Jew according to his or her bloodline. If the bloodline concept made a Jew out of a person, he or she would not lose it by embracing a different faith from the Jewish one. A "bloodline" Jew who become a Christian or Muslim or of any other religion, he or she would not cease being a Jew but they do. If you read Isaiah 56:1-8 those from among the Gentiles who decide to join God's Covenant with His People, get a name better than that of sons and daughters.

 

[Ben Masada]

Yea, sure, and all Christians today love all Muslims because Jesus said "love one another the way I have loved you".

My coverage about this issue is not as black and white as it may appear. The Jews did attempt to formulate protocol for dealing with non-Jews of Pagan religions but to say their attitude was a clean as Isaiah's idealism is simply not the case.

"As I loved you!" If that had been true, they would not have included into the gospel of Matthew the text in 10:5,6 when Jesus forbade his disciples not to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles, especially Samaritans.

 

[clefty]

Yes, the Jews began offering conversion to Gentiles as early as the Babylonion period. There was a special court for the Gentile converts in the Temple.

They weren't offering...it wasn't theirs to give...it was already available for ANY who joined the exodus out of Egypt...the sabbath commandment proves this...and if they wished to join Passover just allow yourself to be cut...

What a trade off...some pain and scarring for a chance to belong and identify as His people...inheriting a Promise...people do tattoos and peircing and what not for dumber reasons...

You seem to think they offered conversions later because their numbers were falling off...

That temple was a house of prayer for all people not theirs and that tribe's arrogant exclusiveness is exactly what Yahshua destroyed...temple included...

As if the sabbath is theirs...or the feasts...

I hear it all the time from them and from Christians...Sabbath? Oh that's jooish...

Then so is marriage...

 

[Caino]

They weren't offering...it wasn't theirs to give...it was already available for ANY who joined the exodus out of Egypt...the sabbath commandment proves this...and if they wished to join Passover just allow yourself to be cut...

What a trade off...some pain and scarring for a chance to belong and identify as His people...inheriting a Promise...people do tattoos and peircing and what not for dumber reasons...

You seem to think they offered conversions later because their numbers were falling off...

That temple was a house of prayer for all people not theirs and that tribe's arrogant exclusiveness is exactly what Yahshua destroyed...temple included...

As if the sabbath is theirs...or the feasts...

I hear it all the time from them and from Christians...oh that's jooish...

You seem to overlook the importance of genealogy in Judaism.

 

[Caino]

"As I loved you!" If that had been true, they would not have included into the gospel of Matthew the text in 10:5,6 when Jesus forbade his disciples not to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles, especially Samaritans.

You missed the point entirely.....or avoided it? Again, just because Isaiah spoke of an idealism doesn't mean Jews followed him, in fact prophets were often mistreated by their contemporaries.

 

[God's Truth]

You only need to answer the last question.

What? Do you really think you can just pass up everything that I said and all the scriptures I posted just to tell me I only need to answer the last question?

Do you follow conscience or moral code to act or not?

Law is not abolished if you are under that covenant the law is 'attached' to.

There is no way anyone can be under the old law.

That's why even right now you need to follow your conscience to act instead of sinning at will. Abiding by the law however won't save you, it's not the problem of the law but it's your problem as you cannot abide by it to be saved. That's why we have to rely on the faith to be saved as specified by the New Covenant.

There is a new law. We have to obey the new law.

"Saved by faith" by no means says that we can sin at will. It simultaneously says that we still need to abide by the Law effective in an older covenant, we don't rely on that covenant to be saved though.

I am not sure what you are saying. We have to obey. Jesus' words are life.

Law is thus in effect all the times for you to obey, or otherwise you can sin at will. Obeying law however won't save you because you are incapable of obeying the law in its full. To put it another way, the older covenant for you is still effective such that you are subject to this older covenant since you are born. You still need to do everything it specifies, including the Law 'attached'. However, God knows that you won't be saved by this older covenant thus you have the option to choose a newer one. Or you can refuse to choose the newer one such that you will be judged by the older one which is in effect all the times.

No. There is only a new law.

Even after you choose the newer covenant, you still need to follow the law specified in the old one to act. That's why you still need to follow your self conscience to act. If law is removed completely, it only means that no law is in effect to limit your behavior thus you can sin at will (as law is already not there).

You can refer Law as being "removed" only in the perspective that Law is no longer used to judged us Christians in the final judgment.

You need to re-study the whole Bible for you misunderstanding to be corrected.

I do not need to do any such thing, but I would love to help you.

 

[clefty]

You seem to overlook the importance of genealogy in Judaism.

How can I?

That is exactly idolatry. Ascribing to bloodlines power that isn't there is no different than praying to a rock or the god it represents...

Or worshipping a bronze serpent beyond its purpose and intent...idolatry is counterfeiting and that they idolized their own blood lines counterfeits the intent of the promise.

How many Christians throughout history elevate them or hold them is such esteem despite their rejection and deceptions...like they have magic mystical powers...its in da blood dontcha know...

What is their bloodline? Ethiopian? Ashkenazi Sephardim khazar? Sammy Davis?

Their talmudic eugenics would make the nazis jealous but that's really not the gospel is it?

And don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Yahushua was one of them, kept OT law and insisted "God so loved the world that whosoever" not just their blood line... and yet look what they did to Him...all of them who were present at the christening of the new covenant the night it was made were of the tribe not one gentile was present...yet we have it and are grafted in...but yet they were afraid and hid and for good reason...

You can't claim His was a new gospel as it was always available to foreigners and you can't say the tribe made it up...that's exactly what they would want you to believe..."we made it" even now some consider themselves now as a collective messiah...and build babylon's Zion...for their own bloodline...

There has been an attempt by the accuser to counterfeit and deceive the meaning of the inheritance of the promise to Israel ever since it was declared that from her Seed He would be vindicated and His restoration would be made...

 

[clefty]

What? Do you really think you can just pass up everything that I said and all the scriptures I posted just to tell me I only need to answer the last question?



There is no way anyone can be under the old law.




There is a new law. We have to obey the new law.



I am not sure what you are saying. We have to obey. Jesus' words are life.



No. There is only a new law.



I do not need to do any such thing, but I would love to help you.

What's this about a new law?

Hope it doesn't counter the old law as "a house divided" and all that...

 

[clefty]

What's this about a new law?

Imagine those under the old law finding out others had certain shortcuts and privileges...

"Oh man...I wanted to eat pork chops all my life..." You think they were mumbling and complainers in the desert wait 'til they find this out...

Paradise ain't looking so good...

 

[God's Truth]

What's this about a new law?

Hope it doesn't counter the old law as "a house divided" and all that...

Oh good sounds like you agree.

 

[God's Truth]

Imagine those under the old law finding out others had certain shortcuts and privileges...

"Oh man...I wanted to eat pork chops all my life..." You think they were mumbling and complainers in the desert wait 'til they find this out...

Paradise ain't looking so good...

Haven't you heard about the good news?

 

[clefty]

Oh good sounds like you agree.

Well...maybe...

Depends what this new law is.

Pretty sure it ain't "Eat Ham on Sundays to celebrate My spookin' My disciples"...

I often hear it's just "love God and your neighbor as yourself"...as if that wasn't in the OT...

In fact, the old was actually amplified not done away with...don't kill went to don't be be hating...or don't commit adultery to don't be whistling at the dames or something like that...

He just wanted to show we can't keep it alone...but He will help wih all that...

So we got a new covenant is true, but I think its terms and conditions of the old remain...namely obedience to Father's immutable Law...

 

[God's Truth]

Well...maybe...

Depends what this new law is.

Don't you know?

Pretty sure it ain't "Eat Ham on Sundays to celebrate My spookin' My disciples"...

You are trying to be funny...I've done that and failed many a times.

Do you want to explain? Forgive me for not getting it.

I often hear it's just "love God and your neighbor as yourself"...as if that wasn't in the OT...

Right, but what was NOT in the Old Testament was Jesus the Lamb of God ONCE and FOR ALL, and you become a priest and Jesus is the High Priest...no more going to the temple to be near God's Spirit, for we become the temple, as we are reconciled to God.

In fact, the old was actually amplified not done away with...don't kill went to don't be be hating...or don't commit adultery to don't be whistling at the dames or something like that...

Something like that?

He just wanted to show we can't keep it alone...but He will help wih all that...

People obeyed the old law.

So we got a new covenant is true, but I think its terms and conditions of the old remain...namely obedience to Father's immutable Law...

We have a new law, it is the old law with some changes.

 

[Caino]

How can I?

That is exactly idolatry. Ascribing to bloodlines power that isn't there is no different than praying to a rock or the god it represents...

Or worshipping a bronze serpent beyond its purpose and intent...idolatry is counterfeiting and that they idolized their own blood lines counterfeits the intent of the promise.

How many Christians throughout history elevate them or hold them is such esteem despite their rejection and deceptions...like they have magic mystical powers...its in da blood dontcha know...

What is their bloodline? Ethiopian? Ashkenazi Sephardim khazar? Sammy Davis?

Their talmudic eugenics would make the nazis jealous but that's really not the gospel is it?

And don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Yahushua was one of them, kept OT law and insisted "God so loved the world that whosoever" not just their blood line... and yet look what they did to Him...all of them who were present at the christening of the new covenant the night it was made were of the tribe not one gentile was present...yet we have it and are grafted in...but yet they were afraid and hid and for good reason...

You can't claim His was a new gospel as it was always available to foreigners and you can't say the tribe made it up...that's exactly what they would want you to believe..."we made it" even now some consider themselves now as a collective messiah...and build babylon's Zion...for their own bloodline...

There has been an attempt by the accuser to counterfeit and deceive the meaning of the inheritance of the promise to Israel ever since it was declared that from her Seed He would be vindicated and His restoration would be made...

The scoundrels that you refer to inside the evolution of Judaisn ARE the same people that wrote the history of the Jews. They converted ordinary secular history into a miraculous fiction while retaining some accurate fragments of Israelite history. Bloodlines and authority are everything to the Hebrew holy men. They claim it came directly from God.

 

[clefty]

Don't you know?

Many variations...was wondering which ones you would cite

You are trying to be funny...I've done that and failed many a times.

Do you want to explain? Forgive me for not getting it.

The biggest "change" they insist is Sunday worship because that is when He rose they claim...I joke a little because I get bored with explaining repeatedly that no one actually saw Him RISE...He appeared to them after...and spooked them...some odd "first of the new sabbaths" Sunday worship celebration that has them hiding and being frightened by their Master's appearing because they expected Him dead...

Right, but what was NOT in the Old Testament was Jesus the Lamb of God ONCE and FOR ALL, and you become a priest and Jesus is the High Priest...no more going to the temple to be near God's Spirit, for we become the temple, as we are reconciled to God.

that first Passover had no priests let alone Levitical line or temple ceremonies...and as a memorial to leaving bondage and sin it remains relevant...celebrating the feast days is a reminder of His calendar His time His way. In the OT Yahushua was present and they had faith...but after the cross we merely have added incentive not laws to keep...

Please recall that even the 10 were not commandments per say but 10 words or sayings...descriptives of what life with Him was like...no need to kill no need to steal, fornicate, lie, make images...and since He blessed and rests on the Sabbath so should we...to get used to living like/with Him

Something like that?

yes again being playful with the fact that nothing is changed and no Christian denies 9 laws remain and are still binding...it's just that last Sabbath one that is so oft ignored or thought needing an update...like the "no adultery" one did...but the update to the fourth counters its original it does not amplify it...

People obeyed the old law.

yes but all failed..some kept trying...some still do

And as the miracle of the Red Sea crossing was proof to the Hebrews He was deserving of love and worship so should the cross and what it did motivate our obedience...alas, like that church in the wilderness so many now seek comfort not vigilance and in turn seek to make changes less strict and demanding...

We have a new law, it is the old law with some changes.

Like Sabbath is now Sunday? Unclean is clean?

 

[clefty]

The scoundrels that you refer to inside the evolution of Judaisn ARE the same people that wrote the history of the Jews. They converted ordinary secular history into a miraculous fiction while retaining some accurate fragments of Israelite history. Bloodlines and authority are everything to the Hebrew holy men. They claim it came directly from God.

Bloodlines in Christianity too...kings by divine right merely meant the church sanctioned it...

And tradition...oh man how important is that succession and tradition thingy...

And yet I doubt Yah would allow Himself to be supplanted usurped or vicarred out of relevancy...just because man deceives and counterfeits doesn't mean one can't see the original through careful Spirit filled reading and study...

It's a weak god that is written out or merely forgotten...every age He has had His own carefully preserving the Truth...despite man's best intention otherwise and the accusers will continue to fail

 

[God's Truth]

Many variations...was wondering which ones you would cite

…but I asked you.

The biggest "change" they insist is Sunday worship because that is when He rose they claim...

Observing special days is worthless now. Jesus is our Sabbath Rest and we worship Jesus all day every day.

I joke a little because I get bored with explaining repeatedly that no one actually saw Him RISE...He appeared to them after...and spooked them...some odd "first of the new sabbaths" Sunday worship celebration that has them hiding and being frightened by their Master's appearing because they expected Him dead...

Oh good point; but how does that change anything?

I have repeated myself and explained things so many times and I just don’t get bored with it.

that first Passover had no priests let alone Levitical line or temple ceremonies...

So? There was blood. You are doing a bad job of trying to disqualify God’s Word.

and as a memorial to leaving bondage and sin it remains relevant...celebrating the feast days is a reminder of His calendar His time His way. In the OT Yahushua was present and they had faith...but after the cross we merely have added incentive not laws to keep...

The laws are from God; even the special days to observe were from God.

Please recall that even the 10 were not commandments per say but 10 words or sayings...descriptives of what life with Him was like...no need to kill no need to steal, fornicate, lie, make images...and since He blessed and rests on the Sabbath so should we...to get used to living like/with Him

Jesus is the Sabbath. The 10 commandments were not the only commandments.

yes again being playful with the fact that nothing is changed and no Christian denies 9 laws remain and are still binding...it's just that last Sabbath one that is so oft ignored or thought needing an update...like the "no adultery" one did...but the update to the fourth counters its original it does not amplify it...

I just want to understand you more, can you explain better? As for the Sabbath…Jesus IS THE SABBATH REST.

The written Word of God says that observing special days is WORTH LESS.

yes but all failed..some kept trying...some still do

No, not all failed. You believe what false teachers say. Look into it yourself.

And as the miracle of the Red Sea crossing was proof to the Hebrews He was deserving of love and worship so should the cross and what it did motivate our obedience...alas, like that church in the wilderness so many now seek comfort not vigilance and in turn seek to make changes less strict and demanding...

I am not sure what you are saying. All died in the desert and did not see the promised land because THEY DID NOT OBEY.

Like Sabbath is now Sunday? Unclean is clean?

Again, worshipping special days is NOTHING.

 

[clefty]

…but I asked you.

you are the one claiming there is new and improved law...

Observing special days is worthless now.

worthless? Wow that's harsh...

Jesus is our Sabbath Rest and we worship Jesus all day every day.

the irony that after all that about separating and sanctifying and making holy and designating clean and unclean and circumcision and promise to a remnant and creating a unique and peculiar people and blessing and anointing and setting apart and good vs evil and singling out and annointing narrow path for a chosen few, the memorials, and remembrances and specific symbols and sign with distinct meanings and functions...despite all that, it's just everyday the same thing.

What a kill joy...party pooper...boring...

Why have a Sunday then?...just work 7 days why don't ya? Funny how the Church has made quite a big deal with all its pomp and ceremony and feast days and holidays...big fanfare for that hour of power service before football starts...

Not sure where you get the idea that He replaces His Father's Law as He didn't say anything of that nature...that would be destroying or losing jots and tittles of His Law...

Oh good point; but how does that change anything?

exactly...it doesn't. That first fruit first day of the week appearances would have been a most opportune time for Him to make an announcement and bring attention about worthless laws and memorials...but not a peep.

I have repeated myself and explained things so many times and I just don’t get bored with it.

There is creativity and challenges in maintaining a deception it's true...

A thrill with getting one by...

So? There was blood. You are doing a bad job of trying to disqualify God’s Word.

lol...showing that observance of a day without the temple is possible because that day occurred before the temple is not disqualifying but establishing...which we are to do

The laws are from God; even the special days to observe were from God.

not even Paul used past tense describing them because I guess he believed they were not worthless and stil binding and relevant...

From God indeed...but now He took them away? Hardly...He is no party pooper...we have new reasons to celebrate with new unleavened bread even...

He gave them to us...let no man cheat you

Jesus is the Sabbath.

citation needed

As it is Yahushua is Lord of the Sabbath...it gives Him authority...by sayin He is the Sabbath you elevate it and bring Him down...that is idolatrous

Rest? if anything He is the reason there is more work to be done and more persecution to endure...luckily we His people still have a day...a sabbath keeping still...and He gives us rest and sends a Comforter...and when the work is done we will rest...or when our work is done we will fall asleep in Him...

The 10 commandments were not the only commandments.

but in them is one you claim worthless...despite Isaiah even saying when we are finally in the rest of paradise we all will be keeping Sabbath to Sabbath...

I just want to understand you more, can you explain better? As for the Sabbath…Jesus IS THE SABBATH REST.

I am trying here...

So who is the other six days?

The written Word of God says that observing special days is WORTH LESS.

Which translation is that?

No, not all failed.

umm...yes they did...all have sinned...

You believe what false teachers say. Look into it yourself.

ok

I am not sure what you are saying. All died in the desert and did not see the promised land because THEY DID NOT OBEY.

you just said some obeyed all...

What's more they obeyed something which is worthless...

Again, worshipping special days is NOTHING.

Not worshipping days silly...because One can not become a day...days have to end ya dig?...and remembering to keep the seventh day holy and staying true to His calendar and times has added much to my life as they ARE a shadow the substance of which is their Maker.

I have a day off and 7 other amazing festivals that help give value and purpose for my life...I don't have counterfeit man made celebrations like Purim or Christmas New Years which are empty and fittingly lead to drunkeness...but real celebrations of time and seasons My Creator made for me...

 

[God's Truth]

you are the one claiming there is new and improved law...




worthless? Wow that's harsh...

the irony that after all that about separating and sanctifying and making holy and designating clean and unclean and circumcision and promise to a remnant and creating a unique and peculiar people and blessing and anointing and setting apart and good vs evil and singling out and annointing narrow path for a chosen few, the memorials, and remembrances and specific symbols and sign with distinct meanings and functions...despite all that, it's just everyday the same thing.

What a kill joy...party pooper...boring...

Why have a Sunday then?...just work 7 days why don't ya? Funny how the Church has made quite a big deal with all its pomp and ceremony and feast days and holidays...big fanfare for that hour of power service before football starts...

Not sure where you get the idea that He replaces His Father's Law as He didn't say anything of that nature...that would be destroying or losing jots and tittles of His Law...

exactly...it doesn't. That first fruit first day of the week appearances would have been a most opportune time for Him to make an announcement and bring attention about worthless laws and memorials...but not a peep.



There is creativity and challenges in maintaining a deception it's true...

A thrill with getting one by...



lol...showing that observance of a day without the temple is possible because that day occurred before the temple is not disqualifying but establishing...which we are to do




not even Paul used past tense describing them because I guess he believed they were not worthless and stil binding and relevant...

From God indeed...but now He took them away? Hardly...He is no party pooper...we have new reasons to celebrate with new unleavened bread even...

He gave them to us...let no man cheat you

citation needed

As it is Yahushua is Lord of the Sabbath...it gives Him authority...by sayin He is the Sabbath you elevate it and bring Him down...that is idolatrous

Rest? if anything He is the reason there is more work to be done and more persecution to endure...luckily we His people still have a day...a sabbath keeping still...and He gives us rest and sends a Comforter...and when the work is done we will rest...or when our work is done we will fall asleep in Him...

but in them is one you claim worthless...despite Isaiah even saying when we are finally in the rest of paradise we all will be keeping Sabbath to Sabbath...




I am trying here...

So who is the other six days?



Which translation is that?


umm...yes they did...all have sinned...

ok


you just said some obeyed all...

What's more they obeyed something which is worthless...






Not worshipping days silly...because One can not become a day...days have to end ya dig?...and remembering to keep the seventh day holy and staying true to His calendar and times has added much to my life as they ARE a shadow the substance of which is their Maker.

I have a day off and 7 other amazing festivals that help give value and purpose for my life...I don't have counterfeit man made celebrations like Purim or Christmas New Years which are empty and fittingly lead to drunkeness...but real celebrations of time and seasons My Creator made for me...

Believe the scriptures that Jesus is the Sabbath and observing special days is worthless.

Galatians 4:9 But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles?

Hebrews 4:8 Now if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His.…

 

[clefty]

Believe the scriptures that Jesus is the Sabbath and observing special days is worthless.

Galatians 4:9 But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles?

Hebrews 4:8 Now if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His.…

First text: is to Celtics who converted from pagan ways and were sliding back to them...those idols and their calendar of gods is worthless....

Second text: of course we have have the rest-paradise...still to look forward to...but for Yah's people there still remains a Sabbath rest keeping...

See? The rest which remains here is named Sabbath, not Jesus...a sabbath rest...not an eternal rest or 15 minute break...

Nor is Jesus named rest...

He could have written there remans a Jesus rest or rest in Him but he didn't...

Oh btw

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