Ben Masada
New member
Jesus was not a spirit like God. Spirits don't eat and digest his food like men.
This day have I begotten you
- Thread starter daqq
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Jesus was not a spirit like God. Spirits don't eat and digest his food like men.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Oh come on Ben,,...you've been around long enough to know keypurr sees 'Christ' or 'the Son' as a spirit-being like his Father who came upon and acted THRU the man Jesus
Much of the century long debates where over how human or divine Jesus Christ was (a special compound thereof),.....with some people seeing a divine Christ-spirit or divine entity as coming upon or acting thru the man Jesus, so there are different viewpoints.
Ben Masada
New member
Prophet Ezekiel refers to the "son of man" more than 50 times, and son of man is translated as a mortal man. No mortal man could ever see God "face-to-face" and live. (Exodus 33:20)Jesus was a mortal man; evidence of the fact is that he died and, according to the Tanach he has never return.
Ben Masada
New member
Oh come on Ben,,...you've been around long enough to know keypurr sees 'Christ' or 'the Son' as a spirit-being like his Father who came upon and acted THRU the man Jesus
Much of the century long debates where over how human or divine Jesus Christ was (a special compound thereof),.....with some people seeing a divine Christ-spirit or divine entity as coming upon or acting thru the man Jesus, so there are different viewpoints.
Yes Freelight, I understand. The point though is that if we were talking about Paul or any other non-Jew, I would not be here trying to put up a defense for the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism. When Christianity uses a Jew to promote the Greek doctrine of the demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman as
we read in Matthew 1:18, a false impression of Judaism is built to the effect that
its root is Greek.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Yes,....on that level of the Son of 'Man' being a mortal, a human person
- Ezekiel and some other OT prophets use this prophetic title too, but do you think its also a 'Messianic' title within the purview of Judaism? Also the Book of Enoch uses this 'title', and some speculate that Jesus may have adopted this title for himself in this same prophetic tradition overlay granted its associated connotations.
Judaism has been cast aside by Jesus Christ the Messiah and the New Testament - Judaism is not a valid faith anymore -
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Many would beg to differ, especially those who are 'Hebrew roots' or 'messianic Jew' types
- in their view, the new faith or revelation given thru Jesus the Messiah, is a reinstating or renewal of the original eternal covenant given to God's people, so a lot of the OT truths and principles still apply, at least the types and shadows.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
How about we think about this 'assumption' a little closer, and see that Jesus in the gospel of Matthew extols and upholds the law and the propets, many of the essentials of Judaic principles and customs, - did he not say I came to fulfill the law and prophets? You will note that its mostly Paul who is the preaching against the Mosaic law promoting his gospel of faith and grace, so that much of Christainity has become Paulianity more or less, this would seem moreso among those who emphasize Paul's gospel over Jesus gospel of the kingdom, since they among others recognize a difference between the two.
From the gospels alone, how close does Jesus stay within Jewish law and customs, and how far has he broken with them? - these would be a matter of study, which principles he respected and which he 'modified' or 'innovated' in his own way. In any case, some still hold Jesus as being very Jewish at heart.
Excellent, all the way through with only one exception I would take and, that is, when he says "go back under the law", I would say that Paul teaches not to go back "under the WORKS of the law", (the letter). But that is not the topic of this thread anyways and everything else he says is well thought out and well studied. I was even somewhat stunned by the opening statement where he says, "when I first began to investigate MY OWN DOCTRINE", wow, would that all might do the same! I know I did, and still continue to do so, not thinking myself to have "arrived" or to already have "obtained", as even Paul warns us all against. There is always so much more, like treasure hidden in the fields of the Father. One thing I would like to add is that the introductions to the Psalms, though often left out in various translations, play a critical role in most cases and this one is no exception. Who is ready to get supernal? Everything has meaning both surface text and what lies beneath, every word of Elohim is pure, having been tried, and He is a magen, a shield, to them that put their trust in Him.
Psalm 45:1-2
1 For the end, concerning the Shoshanim, for the sons of Kore; for instruction, a Song concerning the Beloved: My heart has uttered a good matter; I declare my works to the king, my tongue is the reed of a quick writer [Maher-Shalal-Chash-Baz, Flame of Yah, ha-Kohen, ZkarYah ben BrekYah].
2 You are more beautiful than the sons of men; grace has been shed forth on your lips: therefore Elohim has blessed you forever.
1 Chronicles 26:1-5
1 And for the divisions of the gate-porters: Of the Koreites, Meshelemyah the son of Kore, of the sons of Asaph.
2 And of Meshelemyah the firstborn, Zkaryah, [Zacharias] the second Yadiel, the third Zebadyah, [Zebedee] the fourth Yathniel:
3 The fifth Elam, [Olam] the sixth Yohanan, the seventh Elioenai, the eighth Obededom.
4 And to Obededom sons produced, Shemyah the firstborn, Yehozabad the second, Yoath the third, and Sachar the fourth, and Nethanael [John 1:45] the fifth:
5 Ammiel the sixth, Ysakar [Iskariot] the seventh, Pheulathai the eighth, (for Elohim blessed him).
These are the sons of Kore for the End; for the kingdom of Elohim is within you.
And the Shoshanim are six-petal trumpet lilies: "Six wings to the one!"
John 1:22-23
22 Then said they unto him, Who are you? that we may give an answer to them that sent us: What say you of yourself?
33 He said, I am Kol Kore bamidbar, Voice of a Cryer in the desert, Make straight the Way of YHWH, as haNavi Yeshayahu has said [Isaiah 40:3].
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At the opening of the Gospel of Mark Codex Sinaiticus very clearly gives us the verse structure and the proper reading, which does not include "the Son of God", but surely does include "the prophet Isaiah", which is slowly becoming expunged from the modern translations because they apparently do not perceive or even want to perceive what the author speaks of right here in the opening lines of the account. It seems quite clear to myself that the author is right away at the opening statement using what is called a remez-pointer, that is, the mention of a small portion of a well known passage or certain facts about said passage that will point the reader to that section of scripture. However if the reader does not know this, or know the passage, and fails to go check the passage, then the entire point being made sails over the head of the reader and he or she blindly proceeds forward not even knowing what the speaker or the writer has in mind. This seems to be the case with the opening line of the Gospel of Mark, which points the reader to Isaiah 45:1, because that is the one and only place in Isaiah where we read anything whatsoever about a Mashiyach-Anointed one of YHWH. His name is Koresh, that is, Kor, a furnace, and esh, fire, and therefore, "Furnace of Fire" or "Fiery Furnace", whose countenance shines like the sun going forth in his strength. In the Septuagint his name is Kuros, that is Authority, and Kuros is the base word from which Kurios, (Lord or Master), is derived.
Mark 1:1 Codex Sinaiticus (Sinaiticus | Mark)
1 αρχη του ευαγγελιου ιησου χριστου καθως γεγραπται εν τω ησαια τω προφητη
1 Commencement of the good message of Yeshua Meshiah: just as it is written in ha-Navi Yeshayahu!
There is no mention of an Anointed one anywhere else in Isaiah except for what is found concerning Koresh, the Fiery Furnace, right in the middle of the suffering servant passages: Behold, the day comes, that shall burn as a furnace; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that comes shall burn them up, says YHWH Tsabaoth, it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that reverence My name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings, and you shall go forth and grow up as calves of the stall, (Malachi 4:1-2).
Isaiah 45:1-4
1 Thus says YHWH Elohim to His Meshiach-Christos-Anointed one, to Koresh [the Furnace of Fire] to Kuros, [LXX - Authority-Master-Kurios], whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut:
2 I go before you and make the crooked places straight; I break in pieces the gates of brass and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3 And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and the hidden riches of secret places, [things kept secret from the foundation of the world] that you may know that I am YHWH Elohim who calls your name Elohey Yisrael.
4 For the sake of Yaacob My servant and Yisrael My elect, I have even called you by your name: I have surnamed you, [Elohey Yisrael] though you have not known Me!
Matthew 3:11-12
11 I indeed immerse you with water toward teshuvah-return-repentance-change of heart: but the one coming behind me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to bear: he shall immerse you with holy Wind and Fire!
12 Whose winnowing fork is by way of his hand, [Seven Spirits] and he will thoroughly purge his threshing floor, and gather his wheat into the granary; but the chaff he will consume with unquenchable fire! [Koresh - the Fiery Furnace!]
So then the first line of Mark is not an incomplete sentence, (which is what would happen if it was not rendered this way and why the modern renderings do not follow the clear structure laid out in Sinaiticus). The first line is rather a clear emphatic statement which references Isaiah 45:1 by way of the very context in the opening statement. Then what follows after the opening line of the Gospel of Mark all makes perfect sense:
Mark 1:1-4
1 Commencement of the good message of Yeshua Meshiah: exactly as it is written in ha-Navi Yeshayahu! [cf. Isaiah 45:1].
2 Behold, I send My Angel-Messenger before your face, who shall prepare your way [Exodus 23:20a LXX].
3 Kol Kore bamidbar, (Voice of a Cryer in the desert), Prepare you the way of YHWH, Make straight His paths [Isaiah 40:3].
4 Yohanan the Immerser was in the desert heralding an immersion of repentance toward the sending away of sins:
So long as one does not already have a pre-programmed mindset to force upon the text.
Mark 1:1-4
1 Commencement of the good message of Yeshua Meshiah: exactly as it is written in ha-Navi Yeshayahu! [cf. Isaiah 45:1].
2 Behold, I send My Angel-Messenger before your face, who shall prepare your way [Exodus 23:20a LXX].
3 Kol Kore bamidbar, (Voice of a Cryer in the desert), Prepare you the way of YHWH, Make straight His paths [Isaiah 40:3].
4 Yohanan the Immerser was in the desert heralding an immersion of repentance toward the sending away of sins:
So long as one does not already have a pre-programmed mindset to force upon the text.
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Revelation 14:7 HCSB (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
7 He spoke with a loud voice: “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. Worship the Maker of heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
Revelation 14:7 W/H
7 λεγοντα εν φωνη μεγαλη φοβηθητε τον θεον και δοτε αυτω δοξαν οτι ηλθεν η ωρα της κρισεως αυτου και προσκυνησατε τω ποιησαντι τον ουρανον και την γην και θαλασσαν και πηγας υδατων
"και προσκυνησατε τω ποιησαντι τον ουρανον και την γην..."
"And bow down to the Maker of the heavens and the earth..."
"τω ποιησαντι" ~ "to the Maker" ("to He who made")
ποιησαντι (poiesanti) = MAKER (The Creator)
There really is no better way to understand this very simple and straightforward reading of the above text but perhaps there is a reason why most translations do not do so in the above, (the HCSB was the only one I found). Perhaps because if they did then people who check into and study such things might begin to question why they did not do so here:
Hebrews 3:1-2 W/H
1 οθεν αδελφοι αγιοι κλησεως επουρανιου μετοχοι κατανοησατε τον αποστολον και αρχιερεα της ομολογιας ημων ιησουν
2 πιστον οντα τω ποιησαντι αυτον ως και μωυσης εν [ολω] τω οικω αυτου
"τω ποιησαντι αυτον" ~ "to He who made him" ~ "to his Maker"
Hebrews 3:1-2
1 Wherefore holy brethren, fellow-partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Yeshua the Apostle and Chief Priest of our confession:
2 being faithful to He who made him, [to his Maker], as also was Moshe in all his house:
Dear TriniTitans; hope and pray that hell is just a parable . . . :chuckle:
7 He spoke with a loud voice: “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. Worship the Maker of heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
Revelation 14:7 W/H
7 λεγοντα εν φωνη μεγαλη φοβηθητε τον θεον και δοτε αυτω δοξαν οτι ηλθεν η ωρα της κρισεως αυτου και προσκυνησατε τω ποιησαντι τον ουρανον και την γην και θαλασσαν και πηγας υδατων
"και προσκυνησατε τω ποιησαντι τον ουρανον και την γην..."
"And bow down to the Maker of the heavens and the earth..."
"τω ποιησαντι" ~ "to the Maker" ("to He who made")
ποιησαντι (poiesanti) = MAKER (The Creator)
There really is no better way to understand this very simple and straightforward reading of the above text but perhaps there is a reason why most translations do not do so in the above, (the HCSB was the only one I found). Perhaps because if they did then people who check into and study such things might begin to question why they did not do so here:
Hebrews 3:1-2 W/H
1 οθεν αδελφοι αγιοι κλησεως επουρανιου μετοχοι κατανοησατε τον αποστολον και αρχιερεα της ομολογιας ημων ιησουν
2 πιστον οντα τω ποιησαντι αυτον ως και μωυσης εν [ολω] τω οικω αυτου
"τω ποιησαντι αυτον" ~ "to He who made him" ~ "to his Maker"
Hebrews 3:1-2
1 Wherefore holy brethren, fellow-partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Yeshua the Apostle and Chief Priest of our confession:
2 being faithful to He who made him, [to his Maker], as also was Moshe in all his house:
Dear TriniTitans; hope and pray that hell is just a parable . . . :chuckle:
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beameup
New member
To the Son goes all the glory. Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is YHWH, but not "every knee" will end up in eternity with Him.
Yes, HaShem = Jesus (Yeshua/Joshua)
Beameup, I did not know you had it in you: what a shocker, two blasphemies in two days! This appears to be stage two right before our very eyes; or is it stage three for you? First it was all about Trinitarianism and the "threesome", (as you sacrilegiously called it), then it seems it was all about the "two powers" in the heavens, and now all of a sudden, "Jesus Christ is YHWH", in your latest new confession. It is like you opened up your mouth and suddenly out came the spirit of the Oneness doctrine like an unclean frog. I wonder if you were even expecting that to come out yourself? Did it catch you by surprise too? The truth has a way of doing that to people but sorry for your euonumos-left hand sided luck; that genos will not come out except with prayer and fasting. Take a good look around you at some of the other Oneness heretics roaming to and fro around this desert: there is one here already in the sixth or seventh stage, and the seventh stage is Legion. Oh what a mighty one too; nothing can bind her, and she is always in the tombs and caves, shrieking and crying out, and cutting herself with sharp stones. Don't you perhaps think it might be about time you bow the knee to the Testimony of Yeshua before it is too late? Or perhaps it already is too late, eh? Yes, your own private Armageddon may be fast approaching; better keep that conscience of a garment clean! Oops! too late! :chuckle:
So you like Isaiah 45? Did you happen to notice what was posted from that passage on the previous page? Why are you always a day late and a gill, a fin, a scale, or a belly mite short when it comes to these things? (to those without all things are done in parables
).Paul quotes from the passage in the section which you quoted but you fail to realize that he speaks of the very opening line when he uses Kurios in the way in which you have rendered it, (without the article). Thus he speaks of YHWH's Mashiach, which is Koresh, "the Furnace of Fire", and His Christos in Greek, which is right there in Isaiah 45:1 from the Septuagint as referenced on the previous page. Here is the actual quote from the Septuagint:
Isaiah 45:1 LXX-Septuagint
1 ουτως λεγει κυριος ο θεος τω χριστω μου κυρω ου εκρατησα της δεξιας επακουσαι εμπροσθεν αυτου εθνη και ισχυν βασιλεων διαρρηξω ανοιξω εμπροσθεν αυτου θυρας και πολεις ου συγκλεισθησονται
"ουτως λεγει κυριος ο θεος τω χριστω μου κυρω"
"Thus says YHWH Elohim, to My Christos, [χριστω], to Kuros [κυρω]"
Do you know what this means when you read Philippians 2:11 which you terribly misquoted? It does not mean that you get to make it say whatever you want and turn the Son into the Father at your leisure, or whenever it fits your doctrinal situation, but rather that you must follow the CONTEXT of the ENTIRE passage from which Paul is quoting, (and he does quote from Isaiah 45:23). This means that if you truly desire to be fair to the authors and the text, and you truly seek to find the truth for yourself and truly want to help others, then you must include the whole passage in your thinking and understanding.
We already know from Isaiah 45:1 that Koresh-Kuros is YHWH's Meshiah or Christos:
Therefore:
Philippians 2:11 W/H
11 και πασα γλωσσα εξομολογησηται οτι κυριος ιησους χριστος εις δοξαν θεου πατρος
11 and every tongue shall confess that YHWH's Anointed-Meshiah-Christos is Yeshua, to the glory of Elohim, the Father.
OR:
11 and every tongue shall confess that Yeshua is YHWH's Anointed-Meshiah-Christos, to the glory of Elohim, the Father.
See there? And also the confession must be to the glory of the Father! But you take that glory away in your interpretation so that you may give it all to Yeshua. The above does not violate any of the Isaiah 45 passage and just might keep one from sliding deeper into heresy.
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beameup
New member
Time for you to find an exorcist for that angry mob inside :angrymob:
I hear that Gnosticism will "open the gates" to them.
BTW, the Godhead (all three) are YHWH, but only one has a "name which is above every name", and that's the prototokos-monogenes
chew on that for awhile...
Why should I be angry? I have precedent for what I posted:
Luke 2:11 W/H
11 οτι ετεχθη υμιν σημερον σωτηρ ος εστιν χριστος κυριος εν πολει δαυιδ
This is from a Hebrew mindset, that is, "χριστος κυριος", (anarthrous), and it means "Meshiah YHWH", and in English it might be said, "YHWH's Messiah" or "YHWH's Christ" or "YHWH's Anointed one", and there is enough from both the Hebrew Text and the Septuagint Greek to fully support what I say. In addition to these things there is well known tradition that also supports what I say:
In the days when these texts were first written not a single soul would have ever believed for one second what you believe about these texts! You have made up your own twenty-first century fantasy doctrine straight out of the machinations of your imagination.
Zeke
Well-known member
The historical theory has bred more hysterical sects than any Gnostic belief, who were murdered by?