This day have I begotten you

[RBBI]

Amen. The "womb" or hollow that Mary conceived the Seed in, was her virgin soul (which G-d also provided). Which is why it was said that her own SOUL would also be pierced. It had to be, for the veil must be rent.

Luke 2:35 Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

And indeed it was, on the cross, wherein both blood and water poured out, for this is He who came by BOTH the water (man; bag of waters) and the blood (Spirit). It was THIS blood that He took to make atonement for our sins, for flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of G-d, and THIS blood was a spiritual SEED, of the Father's own KIND, because the Father is a Spirit.

So too, then is His SEED, and this is also why mingled seed is an abomination to Him, as is mixing wool with linen because they speak of a soul/covering for the Spirit Seed that is contaminated with the works of the flesh (Hagar) as opposed to the works of His Spirit (Sarah) wherein is righteousness. Which is why it was said that He was not born this way....

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood (man's), nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,.... BUT of G-d (Who is Spirit).

 

[Ben Masada]

Perhaps somebody should explain to you about "the birds and bees"? It appears that you have-no-clue concerning "conception".

Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name God With Us. - Isaiah 7:14 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy Child which shall be of thee shall be called the Son of God - Luke 1:35. He was born the Holy Son of God.

Isaiah 7:14 is about the fall of the virgin Israel according to Amos 5:2. "The virgin Israel is fallen." Metaphorically as she gave birth to Judah the holy child aka Emmanuel the son of God. (Isaiah 8:8) Indeed, the holy Son of God had been born. Who said so? HaShem Himself said so in Exodus 4:22,23 "Israel is My Son; let My Son go that he may serve Me."

 

[daqq]

Amen. The "womb" or hollow that Mary conceived the Seed in, was her virgin soul (which G-d also provided). Which is why it was said that her own SOUL would also be pierced. It had to be, for the veil must be rent.

Luke 2:35 Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

And indeed it was, on the cross, wherein both blood and water poured out, for this is He who came by BOTH the water (man; bag of waters) and the blood (Spirit). It was THIS blood that He took to make atonement for our sins, for flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of G-d, and THIS blood was a spiritual SEED, of the Father's own KIND, because the Father is a Spirit.

So too, then is His SEED, and this is also why mingled seed is an abomination to Him, as is mixing wool with linen because they speak of a soul/covering for the Spirit Seed that is contaminated with the works of the flesh (Hagar) as opposed to the works of His Spirit (Sarah) wherein is righteousness. Which is why it was said that He was not born this way....

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood (man's), nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,.... BUT of G-d (Who is Spirit).

In this manner is the kingdom of Elohim; as if a man should cast seed into the adamah, sleeping and rising, night and day, and how the seed sprouts up and grows, he knows not: for the earth brings forth fruit of herself; first the garden, (which is feminine), then the stalk, (which is masculine), after that the full head of grain standing out from the stalk. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he sends out the sickle; for the harvest stands ready, (Mark 4:26-29). Therefore I will greatly rejoice in YHWH, my soul shall be joyful in my Elohim; for He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels: for as the earth brings forth her bud, and as the garden makes the things that are sown in it to spring forth; in the same way Adonai YHWH shall cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations, (Isaiah 61:10-11). In the beginning Elohim made man in His own image and likeness, male and female, and likewise in Meshiah there is neither male nor female; and thus Maryah is the virgin soil of the heart as in the Parable of the Sower. Therefore when Yoseph says to her, "From where then is that which is in your hollow?" she says to him, "As YHWH my Elohim lives, I know not how it is within me!" (Tzaddokim 4:20-21). That is because she is the virgin soil of the heart, (of Yoseph), and the earth-land-soil is of the feminine gender, just as all the land of Yisrael in all parables. And also, in the Infancy Gospel of Yaakob, the scarlet of the veil is double spun, (which is indeed according to the Torah if you look in the Septuagint version of Exodus 35:6), and thus Elisheba the mother of the Priesthood also spins the scarlet together with Maryam, (for every child of Ahron is one hundred percent Leviy and one hundred percent Yhudiy, being a son or daughter of Ahron and Elisheba, sister of Nahshon, prince of tribe Yhudah).

 

[daqq]

So the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews says this concerning a man:

Hebrews 5:1-10
1 For every priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in matters relating to Elohim, to offer both gifts and offerings for sins:
2 being able to have a measure of feeling for those not knowing and being led astray, since he himself is also surrounded by weakness.
3 And on account of this he has to offer for sins, as for the people, so likewise for himself.
4 And no one obtains this honor for himself, but he who is called by Elohim, even as Ahron also was.
5 So also the one Anointed did not glorify himself to become a Chief Priest, but it was He who said to him, "You are My son, this day have I begotten you", [Psalm 2:7],
6 as also He says in another place, "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melki-Tsedek", [Psalm 110:4],
7 who in the days of his flesh, [the one Anointed] when he had offered up prayers and petitions with strong crying and tears to Him who was able to save him from death, and was heard because of his reverent fear:
8 though being a son, yet he learned obedience from what things he suffered.
9 And having been perfected, he became the author of everlasting deliverance to all those obeying him:
10 having been designated Chief Priest by Elohim according to the order of Melki-Tsedek:

But of the man, the one Anointed, the author says that he did not glorify or exalt himself to be made a chief Priest. This should immediately raise the question: how can anyone from tribe Yhudah exalt himself to be made a priest even if he wanted to? For the author of Hebrews also clearly tells us elsewhere that Moshe says nothing of Yhudah concerning the priesthood, (Hebrews 7:14), and those who would have read this when it was first written surely knew this to be true by the Law.

Who then was it who did not exalt or glorify himself to be made a chief Priest? What would have happened if a man from tribe Yhudah had made any claim to the Levitical priesthood? Would he have had any legal standing whatsoever from the Torah? Therefore such a one could not have exalted himself or glorified himself to such a station even if he had desired to do so.

There is only one persona in the all of the Gospel accounts who could have made such a claim to the priesthood and yet did not, but rather, he emptied himself of himself, ("He must increase, but I must decrease"). And we know from the passage above that the decree from Psalm 2:7, quoted yet again in Hebrews 5:5, was spoken before he learned obedience as recorded above; for the author says, in Hebrews 5:8, "though being a son, yet he learned obedience from what things he suffered", and therefore he became a son when the decree was spoken from the Father at his anointing, (immersion), and only after having become a son did he learn obedience through his sufferings. The Anointed one is therefore a man, born of a woman, but Meshiah is not a man; and he it is that descended from the heavens in the bodily form of a dove and abode-remained upon the one Anointed, and that one speaks through the one Anointed, (and his words are Spirit and Life). And when the one Anointed was born from above his name was changed, (2Cor 5:17, Rev 3:12, Rev 21:5).

 

[marhig]

What therefore does Paul intend in the following passage where he says that Elohim separated him from the koilia-hollow-belly of his mother? We know that before his spiritual rebirth he was known as Saul, a persecutor of the congregation at Yerushalaim and the faithful, and he makes mention of it all in the same passage:

Galatians 1:15
15 οτε δε ευδοκησεν ο θεος ο αφορισας με εκ κοιλιας μητρος μου και καλεσας δια της χαριτος αυτου

"εκ κοιλιας μητρος μου" ~ "from the hollow of my mother"

Galatians 1:13-16
13 For you have heard of my manner of life in time past in the religion of the Yhudim, how that beyond measure I persecuted the congregation of Elohim, and made havoc of it:
14 And I advanced in the religion of the Yhudim beyond many of mine own age among my countrymen, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it was the good pleasure of Elohim, who separated me from the hollow [koilia] of my mother, and called me through His grace:
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the nations; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood:

No doubt Paul speaks of his "mother" in this sense as Yerushalaim of Above; which he goes on to make plain for all, clearly stating for everyone who reads this epistle that it is an allegory of two covenants. Sarah represents Yerushalaim of Above while Hagar represents Yerushalaim of Below, that is, those who view the covenant and all things according to the eyes and mind of the physical and flesh minded natural man:

Galatians 4:22-27 KJV
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar [Hagar].
25 For this Agar [Hagar] is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, [of below] and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband [cf. Isaiah 54:1-3 Mishkan-Tabernacle imagery].

The "free woman" is Sarah, the son is Yitzchak the son of promise, and therefore Sarah represents Yerushalaim of Above. The same is true of Rachel, and so on, and so on, until Mariam, who is the final typology of Yerushalaim of Above. Yerushalaim of Above is the primary Covenant, as shown in the allegory of the passage as explained above by Paul himself, and likewise shown by the Mishkan-Tabernacle imagery which is clear in Isaiah 54:1-3 from which Paul quotes. What then does the writer speak of with the following words to Timothy? Does he speak of a natural child birth or a spiritual rebirth? Did Timothy know the sacred scriptures before he was physically born into the world? Of course not! This passage then speaks yet again of spiritual rebirth:

2 Timothy 3:15
15 And that from a babe you have known the sacred scriptures, which are able to make you wise unto salvation, through faithfulness that is in Meshiah Yeshua.

Isaiah speaks of the same herein below and this is, no doubt, where Paul receives his understanding:

Isaiah 49:1-6 Septuagint
1 Hearken to me, O islands; and attend, O nations; after a long time it shall come to pass, says YHWH, from the hollow [koilia] of my mother He has called my name: [Elohey Yisrael, Isaiah 45:3]
2 And He has made my mouth as a sharp sword, and He has hid me under the shadow of His hand; He has made me as a choice shaft, and He has hid me in His quiver.
3 And He said unto me, You are My servant, O Yisrael, and in you I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have labored in vain, I have given my strength for vanity, and for nothing; therefore my judgement is with YHWH, and my labor is before my Elohim.
5 And now, thus says YHWH, who formed me from the hollow [koilia] to be His own servant, to gather Yaakob and Yisrael unto Him, and I shall be gathered and glorified before YHWH, and my Elohim shall be my strength:
6 Yea, He said unto me, Is it a great thing for you to be called My servant, to establish the tribes of Yaakob, and to recover the dispersion of Yisrael? Behold, I have given you for the covenant of the peoples, for a light of the nations, that you should be for salvation to the end of the earth!

This is Meshiah speaking, who is born not of a literal virgin or maiden according to the flesh, but rather born out of the koilia, hollow, or belly, the womb of Yerushalaim Above, and that is because Messiah is formed in us when we consume the seed of the Word, (spiritual eating with the ears and eyes; hearing and reading). And his name is Elohey Yisrael, as per Isaiah 45:3 explained previously in this thread, and in him the All Yisrael and Olive Tree of YHWH shall be gathered, that the Father may be glorified in His Yisrael. Therefore Meshiah must be formed in you, as Paul himself says, O Yisrael, for both he that sanctifies and they that are sanctified are all one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, (Hebrews 2:11), that is, they are all to become the suffering servant, Yisrael, (he must increase, but I must die off).

Hello daqq

I believe that the Bible is full of deeper meanings and God opens our understanding as we become stronger in the spirit, I see the Bible a lot more spiritually than some others who only see the natural. But God is spirit and communes through the spirit with us.

Anyway, I see the virgin as innocence, and we too must have a virgin heart for Christ to manifest within. And that comes through self denial and the holy spirit within giving us the strength to overcome (death to self) and once our flesh starts dying, Christ through the spirit starts manafesting within. And as we decrease, he will increase in our hearts. And our hearts are changing inward and our life outward to be like that of Christ.

But saying that, I do believe that Jesus came in flesh, just like me and you. Do you believe that Jesus came in flesh also?

 

[daqq]

Hello daqq

I believe that the Bible is full of deeper meanings and God opens our understanding as we become stronger in the spirit, I see the Bible a lot more spiritually than some others who only see the natural. But God is spirit and communes through the spirit with us.

Anyway, I see the virgin as innocence, and we too must have a virgin heart for Christ to manifest within. And that comes through self denial and the holy spirit within giving us the strength to overcome (death to self) and once our flesh starts dying, Christ through the spirit starts manafesting within. And as we decrease, he must increase in our hearts. And our hearts are changing inward and our life outward to be like that of Christ.

But saying that, I do believe that Jesus came in flesh, just like me and you. Do you believe that Jesus came in flesh also?

Hi Marhig

Not sure if you had read my previous post yet or not but I do believe that the one Anointed did indeed come in the flesh. However his name was changed at his immersion, that is, when the Son of man descended from the heavens in bodily form as a dove and abode-remained upon him throughout the remainder of his ministry. What was his name before Yeshua? Of those having been born of women there had not arisen one greater.

 

[daqq]

There is only one persona in the all of the Gospel accounts who could have made such a claim to the priesthood and yet did not, but rather, he emptied himself of himself, ("He must increase, but I must decrease"). And we know from the passage above that the decree from Psalm 2:7, quoted yet again in Hebrews 5:5, was spoken before he learned obedience as recorded above; for the author says, in Hebrews 5:8, "though being a son, yet he learned obedience from what things he suffered", and therefore he became a son when the decree was spoken from the Father at his anointing, (immersion), and only after having become a son did he learn obedience through his sufferings. The Anointed one is therefore a man, born of a woman, but Meshiah is not a man; and he it is that descended from the heavens in the bodily form of a dove and abode-remained upon the one Anointed, and that one speaks through the one Anointed, (and his words are Spirit and Life). And when the one Anointed was born from above his name was changed, (2Cor 5:17, Rev 3:12, Rev 21:5).

Do you believe that Jesus came in flesh also?

Not sure if you had read my previous post yet or not but I do believe that the one Anointed did indeed come in the flesh. However his name was changed at his immersion, that is, when the Son of man descended from the heavens in bodily form as a dove and abode-remained upon him throughout the remainder of his ministry. What was his name before Yeshua? Of those having been born of women there had not arisen one greater.

Perhaps that is also why Herod says this of Yohanan:

Tzaddokim 7:19-22 (Protoevangelium of [James] Yaakob 23:2)
[19] Moreover Herod in search of Yohanan sent officers also unto Zekaryah, saying, Where have you hidden your son?
[20] But he answered, saying to them, I am a minister under Elohim and continually attending in His Temple: how shall I know where my son is?
[21] And the officers went away and reported all these things to Herod.
[22] And being enraged, Herod said, His son is about to become king over Yisrael!

Did the early congregations have a radically different view from the modern shepherds?
Sure hope the mainstream is not worshiping Yohanan as Elohim Almighty.

 

[marhig]

Hi Marhig

Not sure if you had read my previous post yet or not but I do believe that the one Anointed did indeed come in the flesh. However his name was changed at his immersion, that is, when the Son of man descended from the heavens in bodily form as a dove and abode-remained upon him throughout the remainder of his ministry. What was his name before Yeshua? Of those having been born of women there had not arisen one greater.

I have started reading your other post after i posted the last one, it takes me a while read yours because they are so in depth. I have never studied religion so it takes a bit for me to take things in, I've only ever read the Bible and prayed to God. But I do agree with a lot of what you say.

So do you believe like keypurr?

I believe that the spirit of Christ came in flesh just like you and me, and the he was a spirit in heaven and came into sinful flesh to bear witness to the truth, and to show us the way, he is the way back to God, he came and sacrificed his life to do the will of God. And I believe that he became Christ by being anointed fully of God. but I believe that he always had the holy spirit with him, because it says in the Bible that he grew strong in spirit as a child. I believe that God anointed Jesus with the full strength of holy spirit, and he had full strength of the spirit because he didn't sin. And it's through suffering and self denial that Jesus learned obedience. I believe he was ready to preach at the age of 30 and God gave him the power to do so.

And I believe that we too have to deny ourselves and partake in the sufferings of Christ. I know that I'm more obedient to God now than I ever was, and I know it's through denying myself that the spirit of growing stronger within my heart and he's helping me to overcome.

I don't believe that Jesus received his own spirit at baptism, because who would the spirit be that lived in him up until then? I am a spirit inside my flesh, and so was Jesus, so if he didn't receive his spirit until baptism, who was he beforehand? If you get what I mean?

Remember keep things simple, I'm only a simple woman who hasn't studied Greek and Hebrew

 

[daqq]

I have started reading your other post after i posted the last one, it takes me a while read yours because they are so in depth. I have never studied religion so it takes a bit for me to take things in, I've only ever read the Bible and prayed to God. But I do agree with a lot of what you say.

So do you believe like keypurr?

I believe that the spirit of Christ came in flesh just like you and me, and the he was a spirit in heaven and came into sinful flesh to bear witness to the truth, and to show us the way, he is the way back to God, he came and sacrificed his life to the will of God. And I believe that he became Christ by being anointed fully of God. but I believe that he always had the holy spirit with him, because it says in the Bible that he grew strong in spirit as a child. I believe that God anointed Jesus with the full strength of holy spirit, and he had full strength of the spirit because he didn't sin. And it's through suffering and self denial that Jesus learned obedience. I believe he was ready to preach at the age of 30 and God gave him the power to do so.

And I believe that we too have to deny ourselves and partake in the sufferings of Christ. I know that I'm more obedient to God now than I ever was, and I know it's through denying myself that the spirit of growing stronger within my heart and he's helping me to overcome.

I don't believe that Jesus received his own spirit at baptism, because who would the spirit be that lived in him up until then? I am a spirit inside my flesh, and so was Jesus, so if he didn't receive his spirit until baptism, who was he beforehand? If you get what I mean?

Remember keep things simple, I'm only a simple woman who hasn't studied Greek and Hebrew

Yes, Keypurr and I agree on much, especially about the immersion, though I cannot speak for him or his opinion about many of the things in this particular thread. As for spirit there is no evidence in creation that spirit was actually given when the first man Adam was formed of dust from the soil or adamah. Man indeed acquires another spirit "along the way" through life but unfortunately it is the spirit of the world. The first man Adam became a living soul, and in Genesis 2:7 we find no mention of spirit in either the Hebrew or Greek versions of Genesis 2:7. The Father reserves of the Spirit because He seeks an elohim seed, which in Malachi 2:15 is generally rendered as a "godly seed", but indeed says an elohim seed, (i.e. as with Mariam). That really is what much of this has to do with also; and why we are warned in passages such as Malachi 2:15-16 to guard our own spirit, lest we acquire something evil along the way which will choke out the possibility of an elohim seed being produced in us from on High. The child-like spirit which Yeshua speaks of, (becoming like a child), is one of innocence and may well be reckoned as a "wife of youth" and "wife of covenant" in the same Malachi passage:

Malachi 2:13-16
13 And this have you done again, covering the altar of YHWH with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that He regards not the offering any more, or receives it with good will at your hand.
14 Yet you say, Wherefore? Because YHWH has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously: yet she is your companion, and the wife of your covenant.
15 And did not He make them one? yet He had the remnant of the Spirit: and wherefore one? that He might seek an elohim seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16 For I hate putting away, says YHWH, Elohim of Yisrael; and one who covers violence with his garment, says YHWH Tsabaoth: therefore take heed to your spirit, that you deal not treacherously.

This is clearly supernal thinking as the garment is also likened to spirit, (the conscience is also a garment which is to be kept spotless). If therefore the conscience is seared, as if like a garment seared by a hot iron, then it is likely very similar to saying that the same covers violence with his or her garment, (the conscience of an evil spirited man). Everyone has a wife of youth and wife of covenant; the same concerning Yoseph is called Mariam, a virgin, as the "new covenant" passage from Jeremiah says, YHWH has created a new thing in the earth, nqebah-female shall encompass gaber-man, (Jeremiah 31:22). If you look deep enough, down to the level of the inner man and the heart, you may see that Mariam is the earth or soil of the heart while Yoseph is the gaber-man inside the heart, (a type of the "inner man"), for the soul is in the blood. The kingdom of Elohim is within you.

 

[marhig]

Yes, Keypurr and I agree on much, especially about the immersion, though I cannot speak for him or his opinion about many of the things in this particular thread. As for spirit there is no evidence in creation that spirit was actually given when the first man Adam was formed of dust from the soil or adamah. Man indeed acquires another spirit "along the way" through life but unfortunately it is the spirit of the world. The first man Adam became a living soul, and in Genesis 2:7 we find no mention of spirit in either the Hebrew or Greek versions of Genesis 2:7. The Father reserves of the Spirit because He seeks an elohim seed, which in Malachi 2:15 is generally rendered as a "godly seed", but indeed says an elohim seed, (i.e. as with Mariam). That really is what much of this has to do with also; and why we are warned in passages such as Malachi 2:15-16 to guard our own spirit, lest we acquire something evil along the way which will choke out the possibility of an elohim seed being produced in us from on High. The child-like spirit which Yeshua speaks of, (becoming like a child), is one of innocence and may well be reckoned as a "wife of youth" and "wife of covenant" in the same Malachi passage:

Malachi 2:13-16
13 And this have you done again, covering the altar of YHWH with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that He regards not the offering any more, or receives it with good will at your hand.
14 Yet you say, Wherefore? Because YHWH has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously: yet she is your companion, and the wife of your covenant.
15 And did not He make them one? yet He had the remnant of the Spirit: and wherefore one? that He might seek an elohim seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16 For I hate putting away, says YHWH, Elohim of Yisrael; and one who covers violence with his garment, says YHWH Tsabaoth: therefore take heed to your spirit, that you deal not treacherously.

This is clearly supernal thinking as the garment is also likened to spirit, (the conscience is also a garment which is to be kept spotless). If therefore the conscience is seared, as if like a garment seared by a hot iron, then it is likely very similar to saying that the same covers violence with his or her garment, (the conscience of an evil spirited man). Everyone has a wife of youth and wife of covenant; the same concerning Yoseph is called Mariam, a virgin, as the "new covenant" passage from Jeremiah says, YHWH has created a new thing in the earth, nqebah-female shall encompass gaber-man, (Jeremiah 31:22). If you look deep enough, down to the level of the inner man and the heart, you may see that Mariam is the earth or soil of the heart while Yoseph is the gaber-man inside the heart, (a type of the "inner man"), for the soul is in the blood. The kingdom of Elohim is within you.

This is clearly supernal thinking as the garment is also likened to spirit, (the conscience is also a garment which is to be kept spotless). If therefore the conscience is seared, as if like a garment seared by a hot iron

This I agree with, I believe though that we are born into sinful flesh, but a child is innocent, but as we grow, so do the desires of the flesh. I believe that the covering of God, is his spirit and he cleanses us and we are to be kept clean, but I believe we must deny ourselves. I don't believe that its all done for us, and that we don't have to do anything at all as some believe. Only Satan would say that it's ok to carry on sinning and you're still going to heaven. Just as he told Eve that she would not surely die if she ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God sees everything, we are naked in front of him, it's better to be naked and unashamed than naked and ashamed.

As James said, Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world

I see the creation story a lot differently to others. I see that it's very spiritual and has deeper meanings right through it. But that's not for here

I'll have a good read through your posts in a bit, I'm just going shopping. A woman's work is never done! Especially when you're a wife, mother and Nana!

 

[daqq]

A tale of a different Mary.

Sitting on a bench was I, and opposite me was an elder Tzaddik Rabbi, (sitting on the bench was he). We were at an old train station, watching for the train we were, and as we sat there in the depot this early twenties femme strolls up with her little brother in hand, going on about whether the Father in heaven is really real or not. The older sister was engaged in a clearly futile attempt to explain to her little brother how the idea of a heavenly Father was just a religious myth propagated by men from time immemorial to enslave the masses with guilt and the unhealthy fear of torment in hell if the people did not heed the authority of the Pharisees, Scribes, and Elders, (both the modern and the ancient). However the young man was simply having no part of it, and was insistent upon the fact that his heavenly Father is really real because the Bible tells him so and he knew it from the first time mom and pop had said it to be true. Finally the young man looks over at the Tzaddik sitting next to me and asks him what he thinks about whether he truly has a heavenly Father or not. The older sister then interrupts her little brother, attempting to stop him from going any further, saying, Don't bother the old man, and you know you are not supposed to talk to strangers! Then the Tzaddik takes a glance at the older sister, looks at the young man who could not have been more than eight years old, and with a smile he says to the young man, Child, guard your spirit, and never put away the wife of your youth: for your heavenly Father despises putting away and hates divorce. And the young man replies to the Tzaddik, A wife? Haha, how can I be married Sir? Can't you see I'm just a boy? I'm only eight years old! And the Tzaddik answers the lad, saying, Surely you have a wife young man, even the wife of your own bosom who is like unto your own soul; and she has that spirit of belief about her, whose voice I hear as I listen to you speak: the same is that spirit of the child like faith of all the children of the Great King. But beware, and guard your spirit; for if you put away the wife of the covenant of your youth then you will surely grow up just as your older sister, being wedded to a cruel master. And the old sea hag says to the Tzaddik: "Hey wait a minute Mister, neither am I married, I have no husband!" And the Rabbi says to the sea hag, You have well said, "I have no husband", for you have had five husbands; and he that you now have is not your husband, in that you spoke truly! Five are fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come; but beware the seventh, for his name is Legion. So I spoke up, and I said to the Tzaddik sitting next to me, Rabbi, send her to the back of the train when we board, for because of her my skin crawls. And the Rabbi says to me, The name of the lad is Sumeon, the name of his sister is Maria, and one day her name shall be changed to Mariam; but whence do I know you? And with that my soul is crushed. And with this the Tzemach Tzedek traverses the last train home; and we three follow in his train, his Nazarite hair is white like wool, as white as snow!

 

[daqq]

This I agree with, I believe though that we are born into sinful flesh, but a child is innocent, but as we grow, so do the desires of the flesh. I believe that the covering of God, is his spirit and he cleanses us and we are to be kept clean, but I believe we must deny ourselves. I don't believe that its all done for us, and that we don't have to do anything at all as some believe. Only Satan would say that it's ok to carry on sinning and you're still going to heaven. Just as he told Eve that she would not surely die if she ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God sees everything, we are naked in front of him, it's better to be naked and unashamed than naked and ashamed.

As James said, Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world

I see the creation story a lot differently to others. I see that it's very spiritual and has deeper meanings right through it. But that's not for here

I'll have a good read through your posts in a bit, I'm just going shopping. A woman's work is never done! Especially when you're a wife, mother and Nana!

Amen, the worst thing we can do is try to hide or cover our sin from the Father.
Might as well try sewing fig leaves and putting them on, (as if that would work!).

 

[Wick Stick]

Amen, the worst thing we can do is try to hide or cover our sin from the Father.
Might as well try sewing fig leaves and putting them on, (as if that would work!).

Literal fig leaves, or a certain national identity of which the fig tree is symbolic?

Both, I guess. Just don't look for any fruit on it.

 

[daqq]

Literal fig leaves, or a certain national identity of which the fig tree is symbolic?

Both, I guess. Just don't look for any fruit on it.

We see from the first analogy using figs that it concerns all of mankind, Adam. A particular nation might use it as a national symbol but the reality is that the fig represents both good and evil, (Jeremiah 24:1-3, 29:17-19), the supernal-spiritual mindset -vs- the carnal-natural flesh mindset; the Assyrian -vs- Meshiah:

Isaiah 36:13-17 RNKJV
36:13 Then Rabshakeh stood, and cried with a loud voice in the Jews' language, and said, Hear ye the words of the great king, the king of Assyria.
36:14 Thus saith the king, Let not Hezekiah deceive you: for he shall not be able to deliver you.
36:15 Neither let Hezekiah make you trust in YHWH, saying, YHWH will surely deliver us: this city shall not be delivered into the hand of the king of Assyria.
36:16 Hearken not to Hezekiah: for thus saith the king of Assyria, Make an agreement with me by a present, and come out to me: and eat ye every one of his vine, and every one of his fig tree, and drink ye every one the waters of his own cistern;
36:17 Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards.

The Assyrian promises the same things that our heavenly Father promises, but they are of the wrong understanding, that of the natural and carnal minded man. And what does the Assyrian say? "Come away with me, and eat of your own vine, and of your own fig tree, and drink the waters of your own cistern." But these things are antichrist because we know that true life comes from the true Vine which is Messiah and not of ourselves; as Yeshua says, "I am the true vine." So it comes down to where one gets his or her nourishment; for we are the branches and Meshiah is the Vine. But if we are nourished from our own private understanding, the machinations of our own vain imaginations, and if we drink from our own cisterns; then by default we serve the Assyrian antichrist. And again, these things are allegorical and supernal; for the man is likened to a cistern, a hollow, or cavity, as previously discussed herein:

Jeremiah 2:12-13 RNKJV
2:12 Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith YHWH.
2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

What does the Prophet mean here but that the cavity of the man is the cistern!

Micah 4:1-4 RNKJV
4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of YHWH shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of YHWH, and to the house of the Elohim of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of YHWH from Jerusalem.
4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more
4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of YHWH of hosts hath spoken it.
4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his elohim, [the Assyrian] and [but] we will walk in the name of YHWH our Elohim for ever and ever.

Who and what is your vine? Who and what is the root of your fig tree or olive tree? Who formed your cistern? Can your cistern hold Living Waters? Who is your Living Waters? Who is your nourishment: is it the Assyrian or is it Meshiah the true Vine and Word of the Father?

Thus the fig tree analogy applies to all mankind, yea, even all the trees, (Luke 21:29). When therefore you see the Assyrian branch become tender, and put forth his foliage, know that the summer of your harvest is at hand, even at the doors: stand up straight, and lift up your head; your redemption-buyback-purchase from the earth is nigh, (He shall lop of the bough with terror; and so shall you ever be with the Master, ah yes, comfort and Rest).

 

[freelight]

Sure, the Christ within is the 'light', 'divinity' of God in MAN........

Sure, the Christ within is the 'light', 'divinity' of God in MAN........

Now with all of this said, Freelight, ( ), that is to say most everything in this thread beginning with the OP, I think I have answered this post which I took the liberty of bringing here from the "Jesus is God" thread, (where you had originally addressed it to myself). And with everything addressed so far in this thread as the backdrop; I knew, when I read the following account of the Annunciation, that the author of this passage truly understood the parables, allegories, idioms, and sayings of Yeshua. Apokalupsis Yaakob has been around since before Trinitarianism, which is why it is found in over 130 manuscripts, for it was widely accepted and therefore at one time extant in Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa, (Egypt and Ethiopia). Even Origen mentions a "Book of James", which is probably this infancy narrative, as the oldest surviving manuscript is now part of the Bodmer Library and was found along with about thirty other ancient manuscripts from an ancient Egyptian monastery-library.



Because Apokalypse Yaakob was so well accepted for so long it was copied many times over, and thus, the reason for so many variations. It even goes by various titles, (most call it either the Protoevangelium of James or the Proto-Gospel of James). However there has been a good body of work done concerning it in the last century. I quote this text Greek below from the book by Bart Erdman, (which I will link below the quote), because of the amount of research that went into it and because of the plentiful footnotes which are included with the translation, (which is given for this section on the page following in the link, [Pg.53]).

The Annunciation

The Proto-Gospel of James 11:2-3
[2] Καὶ ἰδοὺ ἄγγελος Κυρίου ἔστη ἐνώπιον αὐτῆς λέγων· "Μὴ φοβοῦ, Μαρία· εὗρες γὰρ χάριν ἐνώπιον τοῦ πάντων Δεσπότου. Συνλήμψῃ ἐκ Λόγου αὐτοῦ." Ἡ δὲ ἀκούσασα Μαρία διεκρίθη ἐν ἑαυτῇ λέγουσα· "Ἐγὼ συνλήμψομαι ἀπὸ Κυρίου Θεοῦ ζῶντος καὶ γεννήσω ὡς πᾶσα γυνὴ γεννᾷ;"
[3] Καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῇ ὁ ἄγγελος Κυρίου· "Οὐχ οὕτως, Μαρία. Δύναμις γὰρ Θεοῦ ἐπισκιάσει σοι· διὸ καὶ τὸ γεννώμενον ἐκ σου ἅγιον κληθήσεται υἱὸς Ὑψίστου. Καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν· αὐτὸς γὰρ σώσει τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ ἐκ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν αὐτῶν." Καὶ εἶπε Μαρία· "Ἰδοὺ ἡ δούλη Κυρίου κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ. Γένοιτό μοι κατὰ τὸ ῥῆμά σου."
https://books.google.com/books?id=C...pocryphal gospels&pg=PA52#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Malak of YHWH tells Mariam that she will conceive or capture seed from, (out of/by way of), the Logos of the Absolute Master, (Despotou/Despotes). She wonders within herself how this could be and responds by asking the Malak accordingly as follows in the rendering below. The response of the Malak of YHWH is always "undertranslated" in most every translation I have seen; for he does not just say, "Not so", (which is what most all of them say), but rather literally, "Not in that way", or "Not in that manner", and this clearly shows that whoever originally wrote this is speaking of a spiritual seed generating a spiritual child and Meshiah being formed in the person by way of the Seed of the Logos-Word of YHWH, just as Yeshua speaks about in many of his parables, allegories, idioms, and sayings.

"Οὐχ οὕτως, Μαρία" ~ "Not in that way, Maryah"

Zaddokim 3:37-42
[37] And having taken the purple she sat upon her seat and began to draw it out, and behold, Malak of YHWH stood before her, saying:
[38] Fear not, Maryah, for you have found favor before the Master of All, and you shall conceive retaining seed from His Word.
[39] But having heard this Maryah disputed within herself, saying, Shall I conceive from the Word of YHWH Elohim the Living and bring forth the same as every woman brings forth?
[40] And the Malak of YHWH said to her, Not in that way Maryah; but the power of Elohim shall overshadow you, wherefore the holy one born of you shall be called a son of the Most High:
[41] And you shall call his name Yeshua; for he shall deliver his people from their sins.
[42] And Maryah said, Behold, the maidservant of YHWH is before Him: let it be unto me according to your Rhema Word.

Interesting view,...but we know that the infancy gospel of James, a 2nd century production, promotes the ever perpetual virginity of Mary, the divinity of Jesus, and so was developed fittingly within a Trinitarian Christology in the centuries after this work, as church doctrine evolved. The birth of Jesus the Christ itself is still of course a divine miracle since no physical man had intercourse with Mary at least in the record, so the 'divinity' of Jesus is all the more emphasized, but this all believed by most traditionalists quite 'literally',...so the orthodox doctrine of the 'Incarnation' is still intact....God became a man; and somehow man became God (Christological con-FUSION) :think:

Note the holy thing to be born is to be named Jesus and he will be called the Son of the living God, etc. I know there is an 'esoteric' or allegorical aspect to this all if we consider "the Christ to be formed within all souls",....but both the mythology or archetypes used and the inner meaning could apply in so many ways. Stretching this out further for those more liberal and all-inclusive believers even within orthodox circles,...one could ever be a 'gnostic' or 'mystic' and accept both the traditional garb and forms, while essentially holding to the inner meaning, essence and soul of the written words (story, allegory, myth, etc.). Here we can maintain being fundamentalists, but perennialists in the universal wisdom tradition, which takes the esoteric truth as the hidden treasure within the stories.

Not to be difficult,....but just saying :cloud9: If the kingdom of heaven is 'within' then this whole universe, this whole reality is nothing but a kind of mirrored consciousness, where what is below reflects what is above, so the old occult axiom still holds,...."as above, so below", as in the 'inner' so in the 'outer', so every form, letter, word has its esoteric equivalent, and its the inner meaning or spirit of the word that really matters, while letter forms are but 'mediums' or 'symbols' for the idea, principle or reality being de-scribed.

On one level, its all types, shadows and fractals, beyond the clear light of pure seeing and knowing of the Spirit itself...if that holy spirit is reflected or recognized within a pure awareness. There is only the Light of God (as One and All), all else are reflections or fractal forms of that (One God), however luminous or obscured. But perhaps I digress on one my gnostic rants. If perhaps treading on perilous grounds, forgive me


:surf:

 

[daqq]

Interesting view,...but we know that the infancy gospel of James, a 2nd century production, promotes the ever perpetual virginity of Mary, the divinity of Jesus, and so was developed fittingly within a Trinitarian Christology in the centuries after this work, as church doctrine evolved. The birth of Jesus the Christ itself is still of course a divine miracle since no physical man had intercourse with Mary at least in the record, so the 'divinity' of Jesus is all the more emphasized, but this all believed by most traditionalists quite 'literally',...so the orthodox doctrine of the 'Incarnation' is still intact....God became a man; and somehow man became God (Christological con-FUSION) :think:

Note the holy thing to be born is to be named Jesus and he will be called the Son of the living God, etc. I know there is an 'esoteric' or allegorical aspect to this all if we consider "the Christ to be formed within all souls",....but both the mythology or archetypes used and the inner meaning could apply in so many ways. Stretching this out further for those more liberal and all-inclusive believers even within orthodox circles,...one could ever be a 'gnostic' or 'mystic' and accept both the traditional garb and forms, while essentially holding to the inner meaning, essence and soul of the written words (story, allegory, myth, etc.). Here we can maintain being fundamentalists, but perennialists in the universal wisdom tradition, which takes the esoteric truth as the hidden treasure within the stories.

Not to be difficult,....but just saying :cloud9: If the kingdom of heaven is 'within' then this whole universe, this whole reality is nothing but a kind of mirrored consciousness, where what is below reflects what is above, so the old occult axiom still holds,...."as above, so below", as in the 'inner' so in the 'outer', so every form, letter, word has its esoteric equivalent, and its the inner meaning or spirit of the word that really matters, while letter forms are but 'mediums' or 'symbols' for the idea, principle or reality being de-scribed.

On one level, its all types, shadows and fractals, beyond the clear light of pure seeing and knowing of the Spirit itself...if that holy spirit is reflected or recognized within a pure awareness. There is only the Light of God (as One and All), all else are reflections or fractal forms of that (One God), however luminous or obscured. But perhaps I digress on one my gnostic rants. If perhaps treading on perilous grounds, forgive me


:surf:

Perilous grounds? Probably not going to happen with me, friend, (say what you will, ). However, when you say "we know" concerning the Infancy Gospel of Yaakob, that seems to be what the so-called scholars know. My reading of it, (within the broader context of the other infancy narratives given in what are now considered the canonical Gospel accounts), does not give me the same impression as what the scholars and majority of translators appear to perceive. They apparently cannot even tell the difference between "the Holy of Holies" and "the most holy things", as the same words are used for both in both the Hebrew and Septuagint contexts from various places in the Torah, (which words can only be understood from those contexts). So they say that Mariam was raised up in the "Holy of Holies", (like idiots), and then proclaim that the author obviously did not understand Jewish customs or the Temple proper. This again shows either a bias, because they do not wish to make the story sound plausible or acceptable in their translations, or they have no understanding of the Torah in either language and therefore should not be trusted. As for Yerushalaim of above what is wrong with her being a perpetual virgin? Or what about the virgin daughter of Zion and Yerushalaim who laughs the Assyrian to scorn in the reply to the Assyrian from the passage quoted to Wick Stick previously above? (Isaiah 37:21-22). The scripture calls the daughter of Zion a virgin, (the women are the cities are the covenants because they are an allegory, Gal 4:24). Can the scripture be changed? Yeshua says the scripture cannot be altered. It is only when a person takes symbolic and allegorical writings and turns them into physical and flesh understandings that the scripture ends up getting nullified and-or contradictory. Though I am not a Catholic, (meaning the religious persuasion), I have no problem with Mariam being thought of as a perpetual virgin because I understand her as Yerushalaim of above, (and the daughter of Zion-Yerushalaim is likewise a virgin: like mother, like daughter). :crackup:

Isaiah 62:1-7 RNKJV
62:1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.
62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of YHWH shall name.
62:3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of YHWH, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy Elohim.
62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah, and thy land Beulah: for YHWH delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy Elohim rejoice over thee.
62:6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of YHWH, keep not silence,
62:7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

The above is yet again a prophetic allegory concerning the city and the tabernacle-temple, ("mother covenant", Galatians 4:22-27 quoting and drawing from Isaiah 54:1-3), and also an allegory concerning the earth-land-soil, (like the virgin soil of the heart or the good ground in the Parable of the Sower). And likewise the virgin daughter of Zion is an allegory of the new covenant, (Zechariah 9:9), because Yeshua has the new covenant and daughter of Zion when he rides into Yerushalaim, (Matthew 21:4-5), which he received from the heavens above, (John 3:27-30). The flesh-physical-historical-carnal minded scholars have woefully misunderstood the writings which they themselves consider holy; why therefore should I trust them with what they already imagine to be a fabrication?

 

[marhig]

Literal fig leaves, or a certain national identity of which the fig tree is symbolic?

Both, I guess. Just don't look for any fruit on it.

Simply put, we can try and work things out for ourselves and try to cover ourselves with the word of God that those before have received, and try and make ourselves look the part but we are false, living to please ourselves and hiding behind Gods word.

We can quote the Bible all day long, but it won't make our heart right.

Or we can follow Jesus and lay down our lives, love God with all our heart, and he will cover us with his understanding. The right amount and when needed. And the spirit will do the works of God within our hearts, putting our fleshly desires to death and bringing us to life in God cleansing us inside and out and covering us in the word of God inside and giving us the word of truth to speak when we need it.

And we should be naked before God and unashamed, not trying to hide what we've done wrong, but be honest, open as truly repent and deny Satan when we know it's wrong to do something and when we have a conscience, don't do it.

We're not to be like Eve easily beguiled in our own hearts, what looks good to the eye, isn't always good for the soul, I've learnt this the hard way. And we're not to be like Adam and believe those who have been deceived and follow them, we are deny this world and the works of Satan, to be alive God, and remain that way.

 

[beameup]

Perhaps you should have gone and done your own investigation after what was said in your own thread earlier today, (which is now quoted above).

Isaiah 7:14 LXX
14 δια τουτο δωσει κυριος αυτος υμιν σημειον ιδου η παρθενος εν γαστρι εξει και τεξεται υιον και καλεσεις το ονομα αυτου εμμανουηλ

εν γαστρι εξει ~ "hold-retain in-stomach" (in-belly)
τεξεται - τίκτω - plant life production (as from seed)

So, a young woman had a stomach-ache because she ate a seed?
My momma told me not to eat watermelon seeds because they would grow in my stomach.

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel - Brenton LXX Translation

 

[daqq]

So, a young woman had a stomach-ache because she ate a seed?
My momma told me not to eat watermelon seeds because they would grow in my stomach.

Yes, Elohim has used seemingly foolish and childish things to confound the wise.
That is what you get for refusing to consume the Seed of the Word: no elohim seed for you! :crackup:
And, again, why do you not believe Paul when he says that Messiah must be formed in you?

Behold, the one whose name is ANATOLE-TSEMACH-BRANCH, he shall tsamach-sprout up out of his place, and he shall build the house of YHWH: he shall even build the temple of YHWH; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a Kohen upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both! (Zechariah 6:12-13).

Once upon a time there was a child; and his father said to him, The heavens are your mind, the throne of the Most High Elohim; and your heart is like an altar, the throne of David. And his son believed him: Oh to be like that child!

 

[freelight]

daqq,

What particular aspects of the traditional virgin birth narrative do you accept and what differentiates your view or interpretation of Mary's conception with the Christ-child? Some traditions or views accept Jesus birth as special in some sense, but with Mary being impregnated by Joseph in the usual natural way, except that overshadowed or enhanced by the Spirit of God. Did Mary conceive miraculously without the usual way of human intercourse, so that Jesus birth is indeed a real miracle, or is this to be interpreted figuratively? Care to elaborate?