This day have I begotten you

[daqq]

Portion of a song:

"For if you do not believe that I am _ _ _ _ _ , you will die in your sins."

They immediately understood that he did not complete the phrase:
And so they said, "You are who?"

Next verse:

I am _ _ , I am _ _ _ _ _ , in the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen.

Next verse:

Amen, amen I say unto you, before Abraham is done, I am _ _ , _ _ _ _ _ _ _
(in the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen).

The song includes Matthew 5:3-16, (for all the little rams, lambs, and arnia).

Oh well, not everyone can learn a new song . . .

Matthew 5:14-16
14 You are the light of the world: a city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a lamp, and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand; and it gives light unto all that are inside the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in the heavens.

John 8:12
12 Then again Yeshua spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of the life.

Yeshua says to them, I am the light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of the life, (John 8:12). And likewise those who have the light of the life are the light of the world, (Matthew 5:14), for the kingdom of Elohim is inside you, (Luke 17:20-21).

Yeshua says to them, You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world, (John 8:23).

Therefore I said to you, that you will die in your sins: for if you do not believe that I am the light of the world, you will die in your sins, (John 8:24).

They immediately understood that he did not complete the phrase:
And so they say to him, "You are who?"

And Yeshua says to them, Even the same that I said to you at the beginning, (I am the light of the world, John 8:12)

Next verse:

I am a ram, I am the light of the world, in the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen.

Next verse:

Amen, amen I say unto you, before Abraham is done, I am the Ram, I am the light of the world, in the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen.

And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in a thicket, (bush), by its horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for an ascending offering instead of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place YHWH Yireh: as it is said to this day, "In the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen", (Genesis 22:13-14).

I am a ram, I am the light of the world, in the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen.

:sheep:

 

[Ben Masada]

“hypostatic union” - The hypostatic union is the personal union of Jesus’ two natures. Jesus has two complete natures—one fully human and one fully divine. What the doctrine of the hypostatic union teaches is that these two natures are permanently united in one person in the God-man. Jesus is not two persons. He is one person. The hypostatic union is the joining of the divine and the human in the one person of Jesus.
In other words, God forever changed himself by unifying Himself with Humans. Will you be one who will participate in eternal fellowship with God because you have been permanently transformed by the Holy Spirit? Or will you be "left out in the cold"?

Jesus was a Jew. Since God-man is akin to the Greek concept of the demigod aka the son of a god with an earthly woman, it did not happen with Jesus.

 

[Ben Masada]

Well, I guess its fine to 'morph' an individual person serving in some sense as 'Messiah' WITH the entire human community that constitutes Israel,....so its a co-mingled Sonship,....all representing Israel. Some however as you know give greater pre-eminence to Jesus as some pre-existent divine being...further being transmuted as some demi-god-man thru the incarnation - fun stuff eh? At the end of the day, beyond what you choose to be believe, its all 'figurative' anyways.

All figurative at the end! I don't think so. The collective concept of Messiah is as real and literal as it can be since not only it is confirmed by the Scriptures but also you can see with your own eyes the Messiah rooming around.

 

[Ben Masada]

Hi Ben, from the Habakkuk passage you have quoted, what do you suppose those Jews understood and meant when they rendered that same passage from whatever Hebrew text they had into the Greek Septuagint? For they rendered in that passage, (the later versions, such as what is found in the ABP Apostolic Bible Polyglot, have it changed to but the earlier texts read. Habakkuk 3:13 LXX

Before you dismiss the LXX please understand that this may actually support your position.

At least at that time, I am sure Prophet Habakkuk was aware of what he was saying. Today, Jews adopting the collective concept of Messiah are growing sky high, especially among the Reform Movement. Only among the Orthodox Jews the illusion of an individual Messiah is still part of their dream that one day he will come.

 

[Ben Masada]

For a more liberal esoteric view of these famous "10 words" (""Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee") go here as Allan Cronshaw terms it to see how to some students believe the words were taken out of the gospel accounts and kept only in some of the other NT passages, some doctrinal preclusions motivating the ommissions being made. Is this significant? It goes back to a special sonship being christened upon Jesus AT his baptism, when the dove of the Holy Spirit or 'Christ' came upon him,....whereby the divine voice of the Father 'anounced' the 'sonship' being given at that time,....."that day". This is more of an Adoptionist view as we've shared previously and could challenge some Trinitarian claims of Jesus eternal sonship....hence the textual 'tinkering'

Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, from Egypt I called My Son."

 

[beameup]

At least at that time, I am sure Prophet Habakkuk was aware of what he was saying. Today, Jews adopting the collective concept of Messiah are growing sky high, especially among the Reform Movement. Only among the Orthodox Jews the illusion of an individual Messiah is still part of their dream that one day he will come.

All "Judaism" post-70AD is "Reformed" and based upon a myth.
So, "Reformed" Judaism becomes "Reformed-Reformed" and furthers the myth.

And as Moses lifted up the brazen serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up: - John 3:14

 

[patrick jane]

Well, I guess its fine to 'morph' an individual person serving in some sense as 'Messiah' WITH the entire human community that constitutes Israel,....so its a co-mingled Sonship,....all representing Israel. Some however as you know give greater pre-eminence to Jesus as some pre-existent divine being...further being transmuted as some demi-god-man thru the incarnation - fun stuff eh? At the end of the day, beyond what you choose to be believe, its all 'figurative' anyways.

How does it feel to go through life with everything you profess being figurative, symbolic or open for debate?

 

[patrick jane]

All the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan:

Matthew 11:9-15
9 But why did you out? to see a prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and exceedingly more than a prophet!
10 This is he of whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before your face, [Exodus 23:20a LXX] who shall prepare your way before you.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there has not arisen a greater-elder than Yohanan the Immerser: yet he that is but little in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he [for the Son of man was made a little lower than (the) Elohim].
12 And from the days of Yohanan the Immerser [cf. Slavonic Josephus] until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and men of violence take it by force.
13 For all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan.
14 And, if you are willing to receive it, this is Eliyahu that is about to come.
15 The one having ears to hear let hear.

So not only is Yohanan the greatest of those having been born of women, and not only is he Eliyahu who is always to come, (because the words of Yeshua will not pass away), and not only is Yohanan the Malak of Exodus 23:20, (because that is where Yeshua quotes from in the Septuagint according to the author of Matthew), but because the nashiym are the kohanim, (born of nashiym, born of women), Yohanan is Mashiach ben Ahron. That is not "the Messiah, son of Ahron", but rather, "the Anointed one, son of Ahron". Elisabeth is the same name as Elisheba, (that is how her name is rendered in the Septuagint, Exodus 6:33). Her name means "oath of God" or "God of oath" because sheba/sheva is seven, (a seven times oath as if "to seven oneself in oath" or repeat a sworn statement seven times in oath). However Elisheba the wife of Ahron is full blooded Yhudiy being sister of Nahshon, prince of tribe Yhudah. That is why I said that every son and daughter of Ahron is one hundred percent Leviy, (Levite), and one hundred percent Yhudiy, (Jewish), and that is because their mother is Elisheba, sister of Nahshon, prince of tribe Yhudah, and Elisheba is the wife of Arhon and therefore the mother of the priesthood. This is why both Maryah and Elisheba spin the scarlet together in Apokalypse Yaakob, and why it draws from the fact that the Torah says the scarlet for all the holy things, including the veil, is to be double spun. It is another allegory, (of blood lines and genealogy in this instance). Yohanan therefore has the right by blood to become a chief Kohen, but he empties himself, and counts it all as loss to gain Messiah. Messiah is he that descended from the heavens at the immersion and he it is who speaks through Yohanan the Lamp. In physical terms Messiah would be through king David, tribe Yhudah; but Messiah is not that kind of physical, for all flesh is not the same flesh, (and king David says, "YHWH said to Adoniy, Sit at My right hand", David therefore is not speaking of a physical son born of the flesh). The body of Messiah could not see corruption, neither could death hold him; and this is the holy food, the true manna from heaven, the bread of life, the pure blood of the grape, the Memra-Logos-Word of the Father. Yohanan is given a new name when he is at last born from above, that is, Yeshua, (and this is the new birth process having been fully disclosed in the scroll of the Apocalypse of Meshiah Yeshua). There is Yeshua the one Anointed and there is Yeshua Meshiah YHWH who descended from the heavens and abode-remained upon the man Yeshua, (formerly Yohanan). Yohanan is not the only one either; for he was not born from above until all those seeking to enter into the kingdom of Elohim had been immersed under his name, (the first shall be last and the last shall be first). Every one born from above has the name of the Father and the name of the Arnion written in his forehead. The firstfruits are those whom Herod had locked up and "hedged in" at the hippodrome, marked for death, about 144000 manchild servants, (παιδας), yet they returned to their brethren just as prophesied in Jeremiah and Micah, (Septuagint version), and Yohanan immersed them all during his very lengthy ministry of an immersion toward teshuvah in the desert. Yoseph and Maryah are therefore allegories: they are the other half of the spiritual lineage and holy seed line of Yohanan the Kohen. Yoseph is Yoseph as prophesied in the Torah; Maryah is Yerushalaim of Above as prophesied in Yeshayahu-Isaiah; for all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan. I know this is going to be too much for most to take in all in one post; therefore I have some 1200 other posts which came before this one to explain what is herein.

That's all great but you never answered the question. Are you saying Jesus wasn't really Jesus until His baptism by JTB?

 

[daqq]

At least at that time, I am sure Prophet Habakkuk was aware of what he was saying. Today, Jews adopting the collective concept of Messiah are growing sky high, especially among the Reform Movement. Only among the Orthodox Jews the illusion of an individual Messiah is still part of their dream that one day he will come.

Paul teaches the same in Galatians 3 with the singular seed of Abraham, which is Messiah, which everyone who is in unity as one in him is. I am a ram, I am the light of the world: for to Abraham and his seed were the promises made; but he says not, "And to your seeds", as of many; but as of one, "And to your seed", which is Messiah, (Gal 3:16), or Anointed one, or maybe even Chrestos which is gracious like the good wine. So then, if you are in Messiah, that is to say, walking upright in his Testimony; then are you are the seed of Abraham, and an heir according to the promise, (Gal 3:29). You are a ram, you are the light of the world; a city that is set on a mountain cannot be hidden.

:sheep:

 

[daqq]

That's all great but you never answered the question. Are you saying Jesus wasn't really Jesus until His baptism by JTB?

Hi PJ, thank you for quoting the entire post. After having gone back to read what PJ, (Freelight), had asked me I have to say that is one of the reasons for my closing comments in the post you have quoted. It is a very lengthy and detailed argument but I have indeed argued many times in many places from the scripture that the virgin birth accounts, although critically important to our understanding of how Messiah is formed in us, they are still yet allegorical and not to be taken literally in a physical sense. Even Paul warns about this to both Titus and Timothy in veiled words using terms such as "old wives tales" and "Jewish fables", (which does indeed include virgin birth accounts because of what is written in Isaiah). Christianity is not the first to come up with the idea of a literal physical miraculous virgin birth. Not saying that "all Jews" believed such things but certainly some did; and they were no different from the carnal minded Christians of today who take symbolic and poetic writings and turn them into literal physical realities. It is error, and for the same reason many people are leaving Christianity in droves these days; for the leaders and pastors of their flocks and congregations have no other explanation when such things are questioned, and that is because their pastors and leaders are for the most part completely carnal minded and walking according to the flesh and physical world. As for Yeshua I am of much the same thought as Keypurr, that is, which Yeshua do you mean? If you mean the Son of Elohim who is the Word then I say he descended in the somatiko-bodily form of the Yonah-Dove. That one has always been with Elohim Most High since the beginning because he is the Word of Elohim. If you have him in you by way of believing and consuming his Testimony-Word, (which is spiritual food), then you are a ram, a living sacrifice, and you are the light of the world; a city that is set on a mountain cannot be hidden: in the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen.

:sheep:

 

[freelight]

How does it feel to go through life with everything you profess being figurative, symbolic or open for debate?

Life is wonderful don't you think?

All language is symbolic, figurative. Anything that is subject to translation or interpretation would be open for debate or alternative understandings or points of view. How one interprets any passage is due to many factors that will 'condition' point of view. As I shared with Ben,....he believes the Messiah is only a collective, a community, a nation,....and NOT an individual person, whereas there are many passages that appear to speak of the Messiah as an individual person as well,...so one can choose HOW to interpret or translate a passage.

 

[patrick jane]

I have indeed argued many times in many places from the scripture that the virgin birth accounts, although critically important to our understanding of how Messiah is formed in us, they are still yet allegorical and not to be taken literally in a physical sense.

Thanks for clarifying that you don't believe the Bible just like freelight and keypurr

 

[Zeke]

How does it feel to go through life with everything you profess being figurative, symbolic or open for debate?

What's even worse is that you can read Galatians 4 (Romans 7) and still think its about two historic flesh and blood siblings that have no inheritance in the Kingdom, You don't trust the Divine to be impartial seeing you think he really hated Esau/flesh and loved Jacob/spirit when its just another version of the same birth process built on precepts told over and over through scripture, Matt 11:11 should be a revelation yet it is still a stone of stumbling Matt 11:3, when you should trust the spirit Luke 17:20-21, instead of making void the word through traditions of men who have taught you to watch the clouds for you're Saviour who is just a pillar of theological salt.

 

[patrick jane]

What's even worse is that you can read Galatians 4 (Romans 7) and still think its about two historic flesh and blood siblings that have no inheritance in the Kingdom, You don't trust the Divine to be impartial seeing you think he really hated Esau/flesh and loved Jacob/spirit when its just another version of the same birth process built on precepts told over and over through scripture, Matt 11:11 should be a revelation yet it is still a stone of stumbling Matt 11:3, when you should trust the spirit Luke 17:20-21, instead of making void the word through traditions of men who have taught you to watch the clouds for you're Saviour who is just a pillar of theological salt.

What's the worst of all is that you can read Galatians 2 and not see 2P2P. You read Colossians 1 and you don't see the mystery and you think NHNE is a fantasy. The inheritance is real and Exodus 16:24 KJV - proves it. You are a walking stumblingstone buried in the red dirt of Ezekiel - making your theology a pillar of proverbial salt ! Nahum 3:6 NIV -

 

[daqq]

Thanks for clarifying that you don't believe the Bible just like freelight and keypurr

That is not what I clarified but you make it known that you uphold the traditions of carnal man over the scripture and the Testimony of Yeshua. How long have you been talking to Keypurr? And yet most all of the scripture that he has posted you refuse to even acknowledge in most cases, just as all of your comrades, so you choose what you will believe while I eat everything that the heavenly Father has put before me on the table of the Master Teacher Yeshua. How many books of the scripture do you say are not intended for you being as it is that you are essentially a MADist? Does the Testimony of Yeshua in the Gospel accounts even apply to you in your opinion? What about the Epistle of James or the Epistle to the Hebrews? What about all of Tanach? Do Torah, Prophets, and Writings apply to you at all? And truth be told, if we really delved into what you actually do believe, I know I can show that you actually do not even believe Paul but rather what others have told you that Paul says. You're living in a make believe world based in the opinions of carnal men when it comes to what Paul says and in that you apparently have no difficulty trusting your own soul. But to each his or her own I suppose.

 

[freelight]

Comprehend the text and its direct and contextual meaning.......

Comprehend the text and its direct and contextual meaning.......

Thanks for clarifying that you don't believe the Bible just like freelight and keypurr

Good mercy.

I think we've established in this thread already, the fact of Jesus 'sonship',...that at his baptism, the Father made the divine announcement of being BEGOTTEN that day, as the dove of the Holy Spirit (the 'Christ' or 'logos') came upon/into Jesus, as you could interpret that as you like. As I said earlier,...all language is figurative, and it depends on the direct context and usage of the words being employed, as to HOW you interpret what is being said. "Thou art My beloved Son, to-day have I begotten Thee", is a pretty awesome declaration.

See 'The challenge of the ten words' - a lot rests on this, which opens up a new way to look at Jesus and his 'sonship' or 'Christhood', and the path that is before us, in realizing our own 'sonship' and 'Christhood'.

 

[Zeke]

What's the worst of all is that you can read Galatians 2 and not see 2P2P. You read Colossians 1 and you don't see the mystery and you think NHNE is a fantasy. The inheritance is real and Exodus 16:24 KJV - proves it. You are a walking stumblingstone buried in the red dirt of Ezekiel - making your theology a pillar of proverbial salt ! Nahum 3:6 NIV -

Allegory! look it up killer (2Cor 3:6) Galatians 4:24 Kinda puts 2 in perspective, if you can grasped Matt 11:11 which you haven't, John 5:39

 

[patrick jane]

Allegory! look it up killer (2Cor 3:6) Galatians 4:24 Kinda puts 2 in perspective, if you can grasped Matt 11:11 which you haven't, John 5:39

John 6:66 KJV -

 

[freelight]

Ever a Son..................

Ever a Son..................

That is not what I clarified but you make it known that you uphold the traditions of carnal man over the scripture and the Testimony of Yeshua. How long have you been talking to Keypurr? And yet most all of the scripture that he has posted you refuse to even acknowledge in most cases, just as all of your comrades, so you choose what you will believe while I eat everything that the heavenly Father has put before me on the table of the Master Teacher Yeshua. How many books of the scripture do you say are not intended for you being as it is that you are essentially a MADist? Does the Testimony of Yeshua in the Gospel accounts even apply to you in your opinion? What about the Epistle of James or the Epistle to the Hebrews? What about all of Tanach? Do Torah, Prophets, and Writings apply to you at all? And truth be told, if we really delved into what you actually do believe, I know I can show that you actually do not even believe Paul but rather what others have told you that Paul says. You're living in a make believe world based in the opinions of carnal men when it comes to what Paul says and in that you apparently have no difficulty trusting your own soul. But to each his or her own I suppose.

And how wonderful it is, to consider the baptismal announcement of the Messiah's sonship, that at that very time, in that very event (contextually speaking as an incarnated soul)...the Father-God said "Today, I have begotten you". It speaks of a 'sonship' or a special generation taking place AT the time of the announcement,.....a 'begetting' in TIME (imagine that). Now we can stretch this conception of time to 'eternity' in the MIND of 'God',...and surely,....in 'eternity',....all intervals of time exist. Events, movements, generations, transformations appear in space thereby giving the impression of time. In the simultaneous NOW in 'God',...all things are existing, and potentially existing (all that is, was and is ever will be simultaneously). The Son by form, title and designation is the progeny of 'God'. - now even if you want to hold the philosophical concept in the orthodox profession of the Son being "eternally begotten"....well, its just semantics - A 'Son' is always the offspring, product of a 'Father'. Eternalize all this if you wish within a Trinitarian formula...the Son still remains the Son of Man, Son of David, Son of God. Key word: Son.

One Universal Father-God is the Father of one and all

One Firstborn Son, and many brethren...........

 

[daqq]

And how wonderful it is, to consider the baptismal announcement of the Messiah's sonship, that at that very time, in that very event (contextually speaking as an incarnated soul)...the Father-God said "Today, I have begotten you". It speaks of a 'sonship' or a special generation taking place AT the time of the announcement,.....a 'begetting' in TIME (imagine that). Now we can stretch this conception of time to 'eternity' in the MIND of 'God',...and surely,....in 'eternity',....all intervals of time exist. Events, movements, generations, transformations appear in space thereby giving the impression of time. In the simultaneous NOW in 'God',...all things are existing, and potentially existing (all that is, was and is ever will be simultaneously). The Son by form, title and designation is the progeny of 'God'. - now even if you want to hold the philosophical concept in the orthodox profession of the Son being "eternally begotten"....well, its just semantics - A 'Son' is always the offspring, product of a 'Father'. Eternalize all this if you wish within a Trinitarian formula...the Son still remains the Son of Man, Son of David, Son of God. Key word: Son.

One Universal Father-God is the Father of one and all

One Firstborn Son, and many brethren...........

Proverbs 30:4-5
4 Who has ascended up into the heavens or descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is the name of His Son, if you know?
5 Every Imrat-Word [Memra] of Eloah is refined: He is a shield to them that put their trust in Him [Gen 15:1].

And no one has ascended into the heavens but he that from the heavens descended:
The Son of man! [John 3:13]

But this whole thing was done so that what is spoken from YHWH by way of haNavi YeshaYah might be fulfilled, saying, Behold, the virgin shall retain engastri, (in belly), and shall texetai-produce a son, (tikto plant life), and you shall call his name עמנו אל, (Eμμανου·Hλ), which is interpreted, El is with us. And Yoseph arose from the hypnos deep sleep, and did as the Malak of YHWH commanded him, and received his wife of youth and wife of covenant: and knew her not until she produced a son, (tikto plant life), and he called his name I͞H.