This day have I begotten you

daqq

Well-known member
:mock:
SPIRIT-WIND-BREATH :rotfl: :kookoo:

HOT-AIR :burnlib:


You haven't a clue whereof you speak.
All of these are fair and legitimate renderings:

Revelation 13:15 KJV
15 And he had power to give
life [pneuma] unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 13:15 YLT
15 and there was given to it to give
a spirit [pneuma] to the image of the beast, that also the image of the beast may speak, and that it may cause as many as shall not bow before the image of the beast, that they may be killed.

Revelation 13:15 ASV
15 And it was given unto him to give
breath [pneuma] to it, even to the image of the breast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as should not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

John 3:8 KJV
8 The
wind [pneuma] bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit [pneuma].

John 3:8 YLT
8 the
Spirit [pneuma] where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit [pneuma].'

Ignorance is bliss I suppose . . . :)
 

beameup

New member
You need to see who the real Son of Man is.

You will not see that with traditional church thinking.

Trust in the scriptures to bring you light.

The Son of Man is not flesh, the true son was SENT not born of a woman. This son needed a body to dwell in, a body to become flesh in. Heb 10:5. No man has seen YHWH.

I don't belong to a church. I was "indoctrinated" by the Jehovah's Witnesses as a teen.
I read and understand the Scriptures without any help from anyone but the indwelling Holy Spirit. I know the Son of God; he sometimes comes to me in my dreams. HE is awesome!
Obviously, you have been "brain-washed" by the Watchtower Society.

Psalm 45:6 NASB - Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
 

daqq

Well-known member
Obviously NONESENSE :rotfl: is your forte.
:mock:
SPIRIT-WIND-BREATH :kookoo:

Obviously you care nothing about the Testimony of Yeshua when it disagrees with you, (John 6:63). But now you are just trying to turn this thread into a useless argument of empty words like "nonesense", "HOT AIR", and calling people who disagree with you "antichrist", (using the scripture out of context as a weapon), because you have no argument against the scriptures that prove your doctrine to be in error.
 

beameup

New member
Obviously you care nothing about the Testimony of Yeshua when it disagrees with you, (John 6:63). But now you are just trying to turn this thread into a useless argument of empty words like "nonesense", "HOT AIR", and calling people who disagree with you "antichrist", (using the scripture out of context as a weapon), because you have no argument against the scriptures that prove your doctrine to be in error.

Your "spirit-wind-breath" doctrine is absolutely not based on Scripture (nowhere mentioned in N.T.).
Your departure from "sound doctrine" as taught by the Apostle Paul is evident.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths"[and nonsense] - 2 Timothy 4:3-4 NASB

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will apostacize from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" - 1 Timothy 4:1 NASB
 

daqq

Well-known member
Your "spirit-wind-breath" doctrine is absolutely not based on Scripture (nowhere mentioned in N.T.).
Your departure from "sound doctrine" as taught by the Apostle Paul is evident.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths"[and nonsense] - 2 Timothy 4:3-4 NASB

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will apostacize from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" - 1 Timothy 4:1 NASB

This was just posted to someone else in your own currently active thread, "'I AM' - the Name of God", but the same goes to you because you were also there in the "Jesus is God" thread which is referenced:

We've already been over this in another thread:

John 12:47-48
47 And if any hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but that the world be delivered.
48 He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him:
THE LOGOS that I have spoken, THAT ONE shall judge him in the last day [Revelation 19:11-16].

I even asked you if you would like me to go round up this with a host of other passages which show why you are in error and you ignored them when I did. Why now should I hear anything else you have to say when you have clearly rejected the Testimony of Yeshua?


Understand son of man?

John 12:48 W/H
48 ο αθετων εμε και μη λαμβανων τα ρηματα μου εχει τον κρινοντα αυτον
ο λογος ον ελαλησα εκεινος κρινει αυτον εν τη εσχατη ημερα

G1565 ἐκεῖνος ekeinos (e-kei'-nos) p:d.
1. that one.
2. (neuter) that thing.
{often intensified by the article prefixed}
[from G1563]
KJV: he, it, the other (same), selfsame, that (same, very), X their, X them, they, this, those
Root(s): G1563

John 12:47-48
47 And if any hear my words, and believe not,
I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but that the world be delivered.
48 He that rejects me, and receives not my words,
has one that judges him: THE LOGOS that I have spoken, THAT ONE shall judge him in the last day [Revelation 19:11-16].

Therefore because you rejected this before you now clearly identify yourself as one who knowingly rejects the Testimony of Yeshua in favor of your own concocted doctrine from the machinations of your vain imagination.
 

daqq

Well-known member
There are those, like yourself, that have no respect for the Word of God.
They have no respect for the work of the Holy Spirit in composing it.
The Devil in particular, despises the Holy Scriptures, as the proclaim his DEMISE.
The Devil is repelled at the Word of God. You seem repulsed at the mere posting of Scripture.

Between you and I it is myself who is posting all the scripture and you are the one repulsed by it. Actions speak louder than words: it isn't true just because every time you open your mouth out come accusations. You show no respect for the Testimony of Yeshua, in fact you reject it, while claiming that he is God. If you truly believed he is God then you would at least acknowledge his words are true when they are posted to you. It is incredible that you cannot see your own hypocrisy. Your twin Esau-man is your own devil and you refuse to crucify your old man Esau who would sell his birthright for a bowl of soup because he, like you, sees all things according to the eyes and mind of the carnal flesh man; walking according to his own belly, just as the serpent was cursed to do from the beginning.

BTW, the "Masoretic Text" has been tampered-with to hide all hints of God's Son, Yeshua Messiah.


And who taught you that? Whoever it was no doubt you bite the hand that feeds just as the carnal man does with every messenger: you take what you want from them and cast aside what you do not wish to incorporate into your Frankenstein theology. But what will you do when the messengers of Elohim return, demanding what is theirs, and you do not have it to give because you cast it and them aside as rubbish? You will pay back everything that you owe: and what you do not have to give, they will remove from your carcass; from the gills, to the fins, to the scales, down to the last belly mite, (to those without, all things are done in parables). :rotfl:


"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths"[and nonsense] - 2 Timothy 4:3-4 NASB

You're too late: do you not see what is posted at the top of this page in Post#76? The passage you quote concerns yourself and that is the very reason it is placed into the text: it is a warning to everyone who reads it concerning the parables, allegories, idioms, and sayings, and especially concerning the infancy narratives, and that is, NOT TO TAKE MYTHOS AND FORCE THEM INTO LITERAL PHYSICAL REALITIES because it would be the catastrophic error of a carnal minded person who walks not according to the Spirit as Paul admonishes all of his readers to do. I suppose that is what you get for letting carnal minded psuchikos-animal-natured men translate and interpret holy writ for you.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Heb 1: 8 (context)

Heb 1: 8 (context)

Psalm 45:6 NASB - Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.

See here & here for some insights on the right translation of this passage.

Here is a JW defense of their translation of the passage.

~*~*~

After seeing the points shared above that challenge a Trinitarian 'interpretation' into the text here,...there are other possible translations of this passage such as 'God is your throne' or 'thy throne is God'....in these cases there is no pronouncement by God to the Son about being 'God' himself, but the declaration is that unto the Messiah, God is his throne, or 'thy throne is God', meaning that the Son's authority and power is in 'God' alone, - 'throne' signifies 'authority', 'rule'.

Since Heb 1 is quoting psalm 45, its good to see some commentaries on this pslams, some scholars think its referring to a Davidic king such as Solomon. Did the Jews think Solomon was God? Even if they did call some kings, judges or might men 'elohim' (god)...it was never a big 'G' ('God) which identifies the one Absolute True God who is not a man. We note that some men were called 'god' (elohim) and as a king or messiah rules in God's stead,...he rules as a 'god'. The term 'elohim' can include men representing God or some role of authority as a 'lord'. Some common translations include -

Your Divine throne” - RSV

“Your throne is like God’s throne” - NEB

“God is your throne” - Byington

“The kingdom that God has given you” - GNB

“God has enthroned you” - REB

“Your throne is from God” - NJB

“Your throne is a throne of God” - NRSV (Alt.)

“Thy throne is the throne of God” - ASV (Alt.)

So you see, these indicate that king's or Messiah's throne is of God, meaning his authority is sourced and given by God. The king or Messiah represents God's authority, rule on earth.

 

Ben Masada

New member
This Day Have I Begotten You

This Day Have I Begotten You

This day have I begotten you. As I am concerned, the day the Lord begat His son was when He said, "Let there be Light and there was Light." (Genesus 1:3) As a child takes regularly nine months to be born, the son begotten of God at Creation was born later with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Exodus 4:22,23) "Israel is My..." said the Lord. Even later, Prophet Isaiah reminded us of this when he reported about Israel being assigned as light unto the nations. (Isaiah 42:6) And further still, Jesus in his Sermon to the Jews from a Mount in Galilee, he said, "You are the light of the world." (Matthew 5:14)
 

Timotheos

New member
Psalm 2 LXX
2 παρεστησαν οι βασιλεις της γης και οι αρχοντες συνηχθησαν επι το αυτο κατα του κυριου και κατα του χριστου αυτου διαψαλμα
2 The kings of the earth stood; and the rulers gathered themselves together against YHWH, and against His Anointed One. {Pause}

What's up with this translation?
It doesn't say YHWH, it says του κυριου, the lord.

And Here:
4 ο κατοικων εν ουρανοις εκγελασεται αυτους και ο κυριος εκμυκτηριει αυτους
4 The One dwelling in the heavens shall mock them, and the Adonai-Master shall deride them:

It doesn't say "Adonai-Master", it again says ο κυριος.

And Here:
7 διαγγελλων το προσταγμα κυριου κυριος ειπεν προς με υιος μου ει συ εγω σημερον γεγεννηκα σε
7 declaring the decree of YHWH, "YHWH has said unto me: You are My Son, this day have I begotten you;

It doesn't say YHWH YHWH, it says κυριου κυριος, lord, lord.

And Here:
12 δραξασθε παιδειας μηποτε οργισθη κυριος και απολεισθε εξ οδου δικαιας οταν εκκαυθη εν ταχει ο θυμος αυτου μακαριοι παντες οι πεποιθοτες επ' αυτω
12 Take hold of [retain] the Son; lest at any time you anger YHWH, and perish from the way of the Just, when his thumos-passion-fury is a little kindled: blessed are all they who place their trust on him [the Son, the Just].
It doesn't say YHWH, it says κυριος, Lord.

Please understand, I am just asking. I'm hesitating to point these things out, due to the reaction I might get.
 

Timotheos

New member
So then . . .

Matthew 3:16-17
16 βαπτισθεις δε ο ιησους ευθυς ανεβη απο του υδατος και ιδου ηνεωχθησαν | αυτω | οι ουρανοι και ειδεν πνευμα θεου καταβαινον ωσει περιστεραν | και | ερχομενον επ αυτον
17 και ιδου φωνη εκ των ουρανων λεγουσα ουτος εστιν ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος εν ω ευδοκησα

Matthew 3:16-17b
16 Moreover immersing by and by Yeshua ascended up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him; and He saw Ruach Elohim descending like a dove and coming upon him:
17 And behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying [to him], "This is My Son, . . ."


The Father says to Yeshua, "This is My Son, . . ."

Ruach Elohim for πνευμα θεου???

Pnuema is spirit, and Theou is God.
 

Ben Masada

New member
You need to see who the real Son of Man is.

You will not see that with traditional church thinking.

Trust in the scriptures to bring you light.

The Son of Man is not flesh, the true son was SENT not born of a woman. This son needed a body to dwell in, a body to become flesh in. Heb 10:5. No man has seen YHWH.

The book of Ezekiel refers to the son of man more than 50 times and the Hebrew translation gives us the interpretation of "Mortal". Son of man and mortal man is one and the same. Jesus was referred to as son of man many times. He died as proof of the son of Man throughout the book of Ezekiel.
 
Last edited:

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
more on Heb. 1:18

more on Heb. 1:18

Continuing on from here,

Lets look at a larger context of Heb. 1


God’s Supreme Revelation

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.


Note the Son inherits, sits down at the right hand of the Majesty on high and has become better than the angels,...this speaking of the man Jesus.

The Son Exalted Above Angels

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You

This important passage has been elaborated already here, as being the full/complete passage that was originally in the baptismal address from the Father above, in the gospel accounts but apparently removed. The "today I have begotten you" being the key phrase...showing a special 'adoption' of Sonship taking place AT the baptism itself, by the holy spirit coming upon him in the form of a dove.


And again:


“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?[d]

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:


“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[e]

7 And of the angels He says:


“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”[f]

8 But to the Son He says:


“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

In verse 8 it could be translated 'God is your throne' or ' your throne is God's throne'. Even if 'theos' or 'elohim' is attributed to the Messiah, it would be small case 'g' as in 'god',...not upper case 'G' as in the One Supreme Absolute DEITY 'God'...which only the Father IS....since the Son is always subordinate to the Father, anointed and sent by him (this is the case no matter how human or divine you make Jesus :) ). There is more to all this of course, as you continue research.

9

You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Here the Son or Messiah has a God :) If the Son is already 'God', how can 'God' have a 'God'? There's a problem on that level, even if a Trinitarian solution is to assume that the human part of Jesus worships and is subservient to Deity (this is true too). It still remains in the Trinity view that God the Son was always 'God', but only changed in some way thru the incarnation by assuming the human nature and personality of Jesus (compound that as you like), so in this sense maintains a human relationship to Deity as well as being fully 'God' at the same time :rolleyes:

In any case,...both Unitarian and Trinitarian views or interpreations of many passages could be had, as either probable, possible or some verging on ridiculous. These are all just various translations, interpretations, points of view. In any case, Jesus still remains as the Son of Man and Son of God, having both 'human' and 'divine' characteristics or qualities, no matter what Christological SPIN you put on it.
 
Last edited:

Ben Masada

New member
This important passage has been elaborated already here, as being the full/complete passage that was originally in the baptismal address from the Father above, in the gospel accounts but apparently removed. The "today I have begotten you" being the key phrase...showing a special 'adoption' of Sonship taking place AT the baptism itself, by the holy spirit coming upon him in the form of a dove.

The "adoption" aka acknowledging of Sonship took place when HaShem sent Moses to effect the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt. Hence, the Lord said, "Israel is My Son; let My Son go that he may serve Me." (Exodus 4:22,23) Israel had been begotten since the creation of the universe and confirmed through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In Egypt he was acknowledged and chosen to be the one from all the nations of the world.
 

daqq

Well-known member
Excellent thread Daqq....no one can see the Son unless the Spirit opens his eyes and the blind are more than the sighted. Blessings to you...

Hi friend, it is good to see you back around these parts, may YHWH bless you too. :)
 

daqq

Well-known member
What's up with this translation?
It doesn't say YHWH, it says του κυριου, the lord.

And Here:

It doesn't say "Adonai-Master", it again says ο κυριος.

And Here:

It doesn't say YHWH YHWH, it says κυριου κυριος, lord, lord.

And Here:

It doesn't say YHWH, it says κυριος, Lord.

Please understand, I am just asking. I'm hesitating to point these things out, due to the reaction I might get.

Ruach Elohim for πνευμα θεου???

Pnuema is spirit, and Theou is God.

Hi Timotheos, let's say for instance you are reading the Brenton English Translation of the Septuagint: you must realize that you are reading not one but two translations. The first translation is from an original Hebrew Text into the Greek Septuagint, (and that would not have been the Masorete Text which, by the way, came about a thousand years later). The second translation is from the Greek Septuagint into English. You are correct that those readings which you point out are not in the Septuagint but at the same time there is minimal doubt what the Hebrew Text says and those are simply English transliterations of those original Hebrew words. In the first instance which you cited you should have included kata because, although not so easy to put into English, it is like one phrase, "kata tou kuriou", which is the translation of "against YHWH" but that is how they rendered it into Greek. A strictly literal rendering of κατα του κυριου would come out something like, "against of", not "against the", and in this case that is reinforced by the fact that the Tetragrammaton is a personal pronoun, (proper name), and Hebrew does not tolerate an article with personal pronouns and names. This can help tremendously when it comes to the New Testament because the Apostolic writers follow the practice which was already laid out for them in the Greek Septuagint. Whenever you see Kurios without an article in the New Testament, (especially the Gospel accounts), it is almost always the name of YHWH because this is the very same practice already put forth in the Septuagint some three hundred years before the advent of Messiah. The first example of this practice may be found in Matthew 1:20 were we read Kurios without an article:

Matthew 1:20 KJV
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


But because of how the Septuagint sets the precedent for the Apostolic writings one may better understand what this truly says in the mindset of the author; for at the time of writing there was no "New Testament" and the only "scripture" was the Tanach or TaNaK, ("Old Testament", Torah, Neviim-Prophets, Ketuvim-Writings).

Matthew 1:20 Textus Receptus
20 ταυτα δε αυτου ενθυμηθεντος ιδου αγγελος κυριου κατ οναρ εφανη αυτω λεγων ιωσηφ υιος δαβιδ μη φοβηθης παραλαβειν μαριαμ την γυναικα σου το γαρ εν αυτη γεννηθεν εκ πνευματος εστιν αγιου


"ιδου αγγελος κυριου" = "Behold, [a] messenger-angel of YHWH" ~ "Behold, [a] malak of YHWH"

But as for your overall question, if you are asking an overall "Why?", perhaps it might be better explained in the following way, which I will keep all in English and transliteration for ease of understanding:

Once upon a study there was a group of talmidim, mathetai, and disciples, all sitting in a circle, studying and praying. And behold, Malak of YHWH descended from the heavens and whispered in the ear of the talmid group leader, saying, "YHWH", tell it your neighbor in private. So the group leader turns to his neighbor and whispers in his ear, "YHWH", tell it your neighbor in private. But the first language of his neighbor was Greek, so the second mathetes turns to his neighbor and whispers in his ear, "Kurios", tell it to your neighbor in private. Moreover the first language of the third disciple was English, so the third disciple turns to his neighbor and whispers in his ear, "LORD", tell it to your neighbor in private. So the next turns to his neighbor and whispers in his ear, "The LORD", tell it to your neighbor in private. And the next then turns to his neighbor and whispers in his ear, "the Lord", tell it to your neighbor in private. And finally that one turns to the last and whispers in his ear, "Yeshua", tell it to the group leader in private. So the last one turns to the group leader and whispers in his ear, "Jesus", and with that the group leader stands up and storms out of the meeting in anger. Then an argument ensues over what he must have originally said. The group disbands, and we never hear from any of them again, but we have all of the information above herein. If you truly seek to find what was originally said then how can you know? Is it difficult to find in the information given herein above? Or do you really want to know? There are enough statements and testimonies in the above for you to believe whatever you would prefer to believe. However, there is only one truth. :)
 

keypurr

Well-known member
I don't belong to a church. I was "indoctrinated" by the Jehovah's Witnesses as a teen.
I read and understand the Scriptures without any help from anyone but the indwelling Holy Spirit. I know the Son of God; he sometimes comes to me in my dreams. HE is awesome!
Obviously, you have been "brain-washed" by the Watchtower Society.
Do you see the differences between the Son of God and the Son of Man?

The son of Man came down from above. The flesh son was born to Mary. The son of Man was in Jesus. That means the son of Man is the son at the creation. A spirit, like his creator. Only the Son of Man has seen God.

Sent from my A622GL using TheologyOnline mobile app
 
Top