This day have I begotten you

marhig

Well-known member
Define "O God"

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

People seem to bring up the verse with O God in it. But they don't ever seem to add in this verse which is just after it in the same chapter showing that God is also the God of Jesus

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
 

daqq

Well-known member
Or a better way enter into you're closet/skull/temple and learn directly from the source you came from instead of second and third hand sources claiming to be the way.


Hi Zeke, good to see you, friend. :)


For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten [prōtotokos] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. - Hebrews 1:5-6
But unto the Son God saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. - Hebrews 1:8


Before one may understand the quote from the Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 32:43, (which you have quoted being quoted in Hebrews 1:6), the same must first understand some of the background information written within the grand opening lines of the Epistle to the Hebrews.

The famous complaint of a scribe in the margin of Codex Vaticanus at Hebrews 1:3 reads:

Heb_1.3_Vaticanus.jpg

"αμαθεστατε και κακε, αφες τον παλαιον, μη μεταποιει"
"Fool and knave, can't you leave the old reading alone and not alter it!"
http://textus-receptus.com/wiki/Hebrews_1:3

Codex Vaticanus in Hebrews 1:3 originally contained φανερων instead of φερων, and it still does because it was corrected back to the original reading by the scribe who made the complaint.

Hebrews 1:3 Codex Vaticanus : φανερων : revealing : manifesting (to make manifest).

The fact that φανερων is found in one of the four most important Codices to Christianity, and in light of the comments made by the scribe in the margin, (showing that the text was in the process of being altered from its original reading by heretics), these things may significantly change the original meaning of the text, (the difference between φανερων and φερων is nothing more than the deletion of two letters in the middle of the word). Rather than "bearing up all things by the word of his own power", the Son is stated to be "making manifest all things concerning the word of His power", (the word, whether rhema or logos, belongs to the Father and is power coming ultimately only from the Father), which is exactly what we see Messiah doing all throughout the Gospel record during his ministry, that is, making manifest (phaneron) all things concerning the word of the power of the Father; things even hidden from the foundation of the world, (Matthew 13:35). When it comes to φερω it does not necessarily mean in this instance what most Christians perceive it to mean. Most normally take this passage, because of how it is generally rendered according to a Trinitarian bias, as if they imagine Atlas the Greek God-Man holding up the whole world upon his shoulders, bearing up or carrying the whole world, but in this case they imagine their own version of the God-Man holding up the whole universe by his own power. However, if that were truly the intent, then the author should have more likely used βασταζω, (bastazo). A good example of how this word is used in this sense may be found in Mark 14:13, which says, "And he sent forth two of his disciples, and said to them, Go into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing (βασταζων) a pitcher of water: follow him", and that is because it is used in the sense of bearing up or carrying.

In addition to these several issues, as previously stated, the author makes it clear that the Prophets in the opening remarks are what he primarily means when the word for messengers is used, that is, αγγελος. But even though αγγελος is employed, and even though it is likely used so as to include all principalities and powers, (because they all fall under the headship of Messiah), still yet the primary meaning from the context is not "angels" in the sense of angelic beings but rather the messengers which are the Prophets. This is shown by way of the length of the opening statement. The way it is laid out in the original language shows that the entire first four or five verses are actually all one grand opening statement. This is evident in most English translations when the verse numbers are removed. Even in the most popular KJV, if we remove the verse numbering, we see that there is no period until the end of verse four:

Hebrews 1:1-4 KJV (without versification caps and verse numbering)
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.


This is actually all one grand opening statement without a period until the end of verse four or possibly not even until the end of verse five. That means that in the same breath the author equates the Prophets with the messengers that he speaks of in the final line quoted above, (verse four). The statement therefore does not intend angels or angelic beings but rather the messengers in the sense of the Prophets; the same of whom the author previously spoke in the same breath. By rendering αγγελος here as "angels" the reader is immediately disconnected from the opening line and put into an incorrect mindset or frame of mind, that is, the mindset of dreams, and dream visions, and ethereal angelic beings which are the stuff of dreams and visions. It is subterfuge and obfuscation because the author speaks not of those things but rather of the Prophets. Otherwise where does the Father ever even speak to the angels in the commonly accepted version of the Christian canon? The Father does not ever speak to the angels except in other places, such as the book of Enoch, which is not accepted in the common Christian canon. Thus in the Christian canon the Father never even speaks to the angels to begin with so the statement of the author of Hebrews is without any impact and essentially made void because the style of Hebrew idiom in this teaching is disconnected and generally not even recognized. Even in the book of Daniel we never read of the Father actually speaking to either Michael or Gabriel. How then does the question from the author of Hebrews even have any bearing on anything? But if he speaks of the Prophets then we know what he means because the Father spoke many times and many ways to, in, and through the Prophets, for example, "And YHWH spoke unto Mosheh, saying", and so on and so on with most all of the other messengers, that is to say, the Prophets in this context.

Hebrews 1:1-5
[1] πολυμερως και πολυτροπως παλαι ο θεος λαλησας τοις πατρασιν εν τοις προφηταις επ εσχατου των ημερων τουτων ελαλησεν ημιν εν υιω [2] ον εθηκεν κληρονομον παντων δι ου και εποιησεν τους αιωνας [3] ος ων απαυγασμα της δοξης και χαρακτηρ της υποστασεως αυτου φερων | φανερων | τε τα παντα τω ρηματι της δυναμεως αυτου καθαρισμον των αμαρτιων ποιησαμενος εκαθισεν εν δεξια της μεγαλωσυνης εν υψηλοις [4] τοσουτω κρειττων γενομενος των αγγελων οσω διαφορωτερον παρ αυτους κεκληρονομηκεν ονομα [5] τινι γαρ ειπεν ποτε των αγγελων υιος μου ει συ εγω σημερον γεγεννηκα σε και παλιν εγω εσομαι αυτω εις πατερα και αυτος εσται μοι εις υιον.

Hebrews 1:1-5
Elohim, having spoken of old time in many portions and many ways to the fathers in the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us in a Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom He also acted out the ages; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His essence, bearing | manifesting | all things concerning the word of His power, and having made a cleansing of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; becoming so much better than the messenger-prophets, inasmuch as he has inherited a more excellent name than they: for unto which of the messenger-prophets said He ever, You are My Son, this day have I begotten you? and again, I shall be unto him for a Father, and he shall be unto Me for a Son?


With these things as background I will answer in another post to your quote from Heb 1:6 and Deut 32:43 (LXX).
 

beameup

New member
People seem to bring up the verse with O God in it. But they don't ever seem to add in this verse which is just after it in the same chapter showing that God is also the God of Jesus

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

It's so obvious its almost comical that you can't "figure it out".
The Son is God and "tabernacled" eternally in glorified human flesh.
Therefore He is both God and Has a "God", the Father.
In other words, God the Son eternally became identified with humans.
The question is: do you want to be eternally identified with the Son of God?

It's not really that "cryptic"... unless you do not have the Holy Spirit [ruach 'Elohim].
 

marhig

Well-known member
It's so obvious its almost comical that you can't "figure it out".
The Son is God and "tabernacled" eternally in glorified human flesh.
Therefore He is both God and Has a "God", the Father.
In other words, God the Son eternally became identified with humans.
The question is: do you want to be eternally identified with the Son of God?


We are the tabernacle and we are his glorified flesh once he has risen in our hearts.

I didn't try to figure anything out, God opened my heart and showed me!
 

beameup

New member
We are the tabernacle and we are his glorified flesh once he has risen in our hearts.

I didn't try to figure anything out, God opened my heart and showed me!
______________________________________________________________________________

Many get a lot of things "revealed" to them, but the Holy Spirit is not the one "revealing".

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons - 1 Timothy 4:1
 

marhig

Well-known member
______________________________________________________________________________

Many get a lot of things "revealed" to them, but the Holy Spirit is not the one "revealing".

If it's not to glorify God and to bring Gods love and light to ourselves and also to others then it's not a true revelation.
 

daqq

Well-known member
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten [prōtotokos] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. - Hebrews 1:5-6

By your previous statements it is clear that you have the incorrect understanding of prototokos here in this passage, and therefore, an inccorect overall understanding of both the passage and the verse within it which you have quoted. In fact EVERY English translation of Hebrews 1:6 is full of erroneous thinking and neither are there any commentaries which adequately understand the passage. Some translations even go so far as to translate "oikoumenen" as "the universe", (saying when God brought His prototokos-firstborn "into the universe", lol). Most so-called scholars in their own commentaries cannot even agree on why the word "palin", (anew-again), is employed in the text with some of them even suggesting that this passage speaks of the second advent of Meshiah instead of the first advent. It is, and they are, first and foremost the man Yisrael and all his offspring which are the prototokos-firstborn of Elohim according to the scripture:

Exodus 4:22 Restored Name KJV (Masoretic Text)
4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

http://yahushua.net/scriptures/ex4.htm

Exodus 4:22 Brenton Septuagint Translation
22. And thou shalt say to Pharao, These things saith the Lord, Israel is my first-born.

http://biblehub.com/sep/exodus/4.htm

Exodus 4:22 Septuagint
4:22 συ δε ερεις τω φαραω ταδε λεγει κυριος υιος πρωτοτοκος μου ισραηλ

http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/02_004.htm

Hebrews 1:6
1:6 ὅταν δὲ πάλιν εἰσαγάγῃ τὸν πρωτότοκον εἰς τὴν οἰκουμένην, λέγει Καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ.

http://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/1-6.htm

Hebrews 1:6 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
6. Hotan de palin eisagage ton prototokon eis ten oikoumenen, legei, "Kai proskunesatosan auto pantes angeloi Theou."

Hebrews 1:6 Vertical Strong's Numbers with Short Definitions
|3752| hotan - when
|1161| de - and/but/moreover
|3825| palin - anew, (by repetition) - again
|1521| eisago - to lead - [eisagage] - he brings
|3588| ho - definite article - [ton] - the
|4416| prototokos - firstborn - [prototokon] - firstborn
|1519| eis - to/for/in/into
|3588| ho - definite article - [ten] - the
|3625| oikoumene - habitable land -or- habitable world - [oikoumenen] - land
|3004| lego - to say - [legei] - He says,
|2532| kai - and
|4352| proskuneo - to bow - do obeisance - [proskunesatosan] - let bow unto
|0846| autos - he/she/they/them - [auto] - him
|3956| pas - all - [pantes] - all of the
|0032| aggelos - messenger/angel/prophet/preacher - [angeloi] - messengers
|2316| Theos - [Theou] - Elohim - God


The translators have basically two choices when it comes to the meaning of oikoumene. I only quote the Original Strong's Definition here because it is short and there is no need to post everything available about it just to understand the meaning of the word. In fact the first implied meaning is not "world", (as in kosmos) but rather LAND as in habitable land, territory, or an empire.

Original Strong's Ref. #3625
Romanized oikoumene
Pronounced oy-kou-men'-ay
feminine participle present passive of GSN3611 (as noun, by implication of GSN1093); land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specifically, the Roman empire:
KJV--earth, world.

So how do I know my understanding of Hebrews 1:6 is the correct one? Do not let all of the Greek and definitions take away from the fact that these things, just as most everything Scripture, come directly from the text and its surrounding context. The quote from Hebrews 1:6 just so happens to have been omitted from the Masoretic Text but is plain as day in the Septuagint. So we read it from an English rendering of the Septuagint and hopefully, from this simple and straightforward reading, the true meaning of what Hebrews 1:6 states will become clear as daylight:

MESHIAH IS THE RIGHT HAND OF YHWH ELOHIM:

Deuteronomy 32:39-52
39. Behold, behold that I am He, and there is no god beside Me:
I kill, and I will make to live: I will smite, and I will heal; and there is none who shall deliver out of My hands.
40. For I will lift up My hand to the heavens, and swear by My right hand, and I will say, I live for ever.
41. For I will sharpen My sword like lightning, and My hand shall take hold of judgment; and I will render judgment to My enemies, and will recompense them that hate Me.
42. I will make My weapons drunk with blood, and My sword shall devour flesh, it shall glut itself with the blood of the wounded, and from the captivity of the heads of their enemies that rule over them:
43. Rejoice, you heavens, with him,
[His Right Hand - the Sword - the Prototokos - Yisrael - Heb 1:6] and let all the messengers of Elohim do obeisance [bow] unto him; [the Prototokos Yisrael - Heb 1:6] rejoice you Gentiles with his people, and let all the sons of Elohim strengthen themselves in him; [the Right Hand of YHWH] for he will avenge the blood of the sons thereof, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and YHWH shall purge-atone the land of his people.
44. And Moshe wrote this song in that day, and taught it to the sons of Yisrael; and Moshe went in and spoke all the words of this Torah in the ears of the people, he and Yeshua the son of Nun.
45. And Moshe finished speaking to all Yisrael.
46. And he said to them, Take heed with your heart to all these words, which I testify to you this day, which you shall command your sons, to observe and do all the words of this Torah.
47. For this is no vain word to you; for it is your life, and because of this word you shall live long upon the land, into which you go over Yarden to inherit it.
48. And YHWH spoke to Moshe in this day, saying:
49. Go up to the mount Abarim, this mountain Nebo which is in the land of Moab over against Yericho, and behold the land of Chanaan, which I give to the sons of Yisrael:
50. And die in the mount whither you ascend up, and be added to your people; as Ahron your brother died in mount Hor and was added to his people:
51. Because you disobeyed My word among the sons of Yisrael at the waters of strife of Cades, in the wilderness of Sin; because you sanctified Me not among the sons of Yisrael.
52. You shall see the land before you, but you shall not enter into it.


This is the day wherein YHWH begins to reveal that His Son, His Sword, His Word, is His right hand, His right arm, His suffering servant who is to come: whom He will lift up and highly exalt at Golgotha, and swear that He, YHWH, the Father, lives forever, (and therefore obviously His Son lives forever). Meshiah is likewise the Avenger of YHWH, the Sword of YHWH, the right arm or "shoulder", (which is the best portion of the sacrificial offerings), he is the right hand, which is why he sat down at the right hand of the Father when he was resurrected. This is also the day wherein Moshe was commanded to go up into mount Nebo of the Abarim, the crossing place, and die. Therefore it is the fortieth year of the wilderness sojourn of the sons of Yisrael. After mourning the death of Moshe they would indeed be led, brought back, anew-again into the Land just as Hebrews 1:6 states. That is why "palin" is found in Hebrews 1:6, because Yisrael is the prototokos-firstborn, and it was at this time that the sojourn in Egypt and the forty years in the desert were over. They we about to be brought anew-again-παλιν into the οικουμενην-habitable Land of Yisrael. The only true "habitable land" is the one that counts in the eyes of YHWH; and that is always the Land of Yisrael throughout all of holy writ.

Hebrews 1:6b
Καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ

Deuteronomy 32:43b
καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι Θεοῦ

Hebrews 1:6
6 ὅταν δὲ πάλιν εἰσαγάγῃ τὸν πρωτότοκον εἰς τὴν οἰκουμένην, λέγει Καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ.

Hebrews 1:6
6 Moreover when He leads the prototokos-firstborn, (Yisrael), anew-again into the Land, (of the Promise), He says, "And let all the messengers of Elohim do obeisance unto him."


Therefore also προσκυνεω, "worship", does not mean here what Christianity would prefer it to mean; otherwise Moshe would have been commanding both the αγγελοι-messengers and the people to worship Yisrael as Elohim Most High. It is rather to do obeisance, to bow to, like bowing before a king, like bowing to king David or one of the other kings of Yhudah or Yisrael, to do honor, to respect, as all the Prophets do when the speak the WORD of YHWH by His Spirit. Every single English translation of Hebrews 1:6 is corrupted with the doctrines and vain imaginations of carnal men. If they had a fifty-fifty chance with οἰκουμένην and still guessed wrong despite the known quote coming word for word directly from the Septuagint, (which most already outright reject simply because of their dogma), then certainly none of them are lead by the Holy Spirit of our heavenly Father because the context involved herein Testifies against them.

Dear Beameup: your entire theological framework has been burned down to the ground . . .
In six little verses from the grand opening statement of the Epistle to the Hebrews . . . :)

:sheep:
 

beameup

New member
By your previous statements it is clear that you have the incorrect understanding of prototokos here in this passage,
---------------------------------------------

Wow what a "scholar", you can actually "copy & paste" from the Watchtower Society... :rotfl:

Prototokos, from which "prototype" is derived, is commonly understood even among high-school students.
Yeshua is our "prototype" and we who put our trust in Him will become like Him in the resurrection or harpazo (if still alive).
We who trust in Yeshua have the Holy Spirit on the inside, which is a guarantee that we shall be changed into an immortal body, just like His.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Holy Spirit, if so be that the Holy Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Holy Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9
 

daqq

Well-known member
Define "O God"

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

People seem to bring up the verse with O God in it. But they don't ever seem to add in this verse which is just after it in the same chapter showing that God is also the God of Jesus

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Hello friends, :)

Elohim is also generally rendered "angels" in Psalm 8:5 quoted in Hebrews 2:7 and applied directly to Yeshua in Hebrews 2:9. In this too the so-called scholars cannot even agree as to which way it should be understood. However, no doubt, those who rendered the Hebrew into the Greek Septuagint read it here as meaning either angels or messengers because we find αγγελους in the Septuagint and the author of Hebrews once again quotes from that text:

Hebrews 2:6-9
6 But one in a certain place has testified, saying, "What is man, that you are mindful of him? or the son of man, that you visit him?
7 You have made him a little lower than αγγελους-Elohim; you crowned him with glory and honor, and have set him over the works of your hands:
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet", for in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him; but now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Yeshua, who was made a little lower than αγγελους-Elohim for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of Elohim should taste death for every man.


Yet when we look at this in the context of the Psalm that is quoted by the author we find Elohim in the Hebrew text while in the LXX-Septuagint we find αγγελους rendered from the Hebrew word Elohim in the same place. Which then does it mean here? and how should it be understood in the English translations of the Psalm? The outcome either way creates furious debate because it has heavy theological implications either way. The KJV here renders Elohim as angels but other translations render Elohim as God. Which one does the author intend?

Psalm 8:4-5 KJV
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels,
[Elohim] and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Psalm 8:4-5 ASV
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? And the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him but little lower than God,
[Elohim] And crownest him with glory and honor.

Elohim can mean God, messengers, angels, judges, mighty ones, false gods of the heathen, and is even used for "godly seed" in Malachi 2:15 which literally says "Elohim seed", (the true supernal meaning behind the infancy narratives).
 

daqq

Well-known member
---------------------------------------------

Wow what a "scholar", you can actually "copy & paste" from the Watchtower Society... :rotfl:

Prototokos, from which "prototype" is derived, is commonly understood even among high-school students.
Yeshua is our "prototype" and we who put our trust in Him will become like Him in the resurrection or harpazo (if still alive).
We who trust in Yeshua have the Holy Spirit on the inside, which is a guarantee that we shall be changed into an immortal body, just like His.

False accusations do not help your case but rather only serve to reveal that you are once again at a loss for words and without any hard evidence for what you yourself have been duped into believing. Scrap what you think you have now, and start over where you have been shown, or even that which you think you have now will be taken from you. You are already buried under a mountain of evidence right here in this thread. If you do not change course you are likely to awaken one day only to find your carcass having been buried in Kibroth Hattaavah. :crackup: :)
 

daqq

Well-known member
John 8:24b
You have been given warning from Jesus

You cannot truly give me a warning from someone you neither know nor serve. You already have two pages of warning in this thread and you reject the Messiah in whom I serve the Father through His Word. And I serve in him now that I have already once awoken to find my own carcass buried in Kibroth Hattaavah, in fact, I've already been to hell and now here am I back from the dead, plucked from the fire. And if this ever happens to you, and if you be so blessed to overcome, (you're going to have to be willing to die), then and only then will you truly understand the grace of Elohim because when you get there you are going to find out the hard way that there is absolutely nothing you can do to save yourself, (because the only thing you will by offered by your twin will destroy you if you accept). One day you will see, and you will not escape that day if indeed you truly seek to become a disciple of Yeshua, but as of now you do not know him any more than you think know me. Now I will be going back to the topic which is not about you or me so please continue with the topic or go find someone else to spew your empty warnings and false accusations at. :)
 

beameup

New member
And I serve in him now that I have already once awoken to find my own carcass buried in Kibroth Hattaavah, in fact, I've already been to hell and now here am I back from the dead, plucked from the fire. And if this ever happens to you, and if you be so blessed to overcome, (you're going to have to be willing to die),...when you get there you are going to find out the hard way that there is absolutely nothing you can do to save yourself, (because the only thing you will by offered by your twin will destroy you if you accept).
:kookoo:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment - Hebrews 9:27
 

daqq

Well-known member

If Paul is the only one whose words you believe are for you, and yet you do not understand Paul, then what are you left with? You too will stand before the Bema of Messiah. We are confident and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Master. Wherefore we labor, so that whether present, or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the Bema of Messiah; that every one may receive the things done in the body, (the time appointed of the Father when a child becomes a son), according to what each has done, whether for the good or whether for the evil. Those of us therefore knowing the terror of the Absolute Master; we persuade men. Those of you who know Him not, eat, drink, and rise up to play.

In Dam-meshek the governor under Aretas Azazel the king of the desert kept the city of the Damessenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me: and through a window, in a wickerwork birdcage basket was I let down through the wall, and escaped his hands. It is necessary to vaunt, though not advantageous for myself, but I speak of visions and revelations of the Master. I know an anthropon manfaced, (countenance), in Messiah, prior to nine years ago; whether in the body, I know not, or whether out of the body, I know not, (YHWH knows), that certain such a one was caught up to the third heaven. Also I know a certain such a one, an anthropon manfaced, whether in the body or apart from the body, I know not, (it is a day that only YHWH knows), how that one was caught up into Paradise, (which is not the same as the third heaven), and heard unspeakable words which are not lawful for a man to utter. The one is your twin and is slowly killing you, that is, the old man nature, (The old man ancient one, with countenance exalted, he is the head; and the false prophet teaching lies, he is the tail, [of the dragon]). But if you believe neither Moshe nor Yeshua nor Paul then why would you believe me?
 
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keypurr

Well-known member
Hello friends, :)

Elohim is also generally rendered "angels" in Psalm 8:5 quoted in Hebrews 2:7 and applied directly to Yeshua in Hebrews 2:9. In this too the so-called scholars cannot even agree as to which way it should be understood. However, no doubt, those who rendered the Hebrew into the Greek Septuagint read it here as meaning either angels or messengers because we find αγγελους in the Septuagint and the author of Hebrews once again quotes from that text:

Hebrews 2:6-9
6 But one in a certain place has testified, saying, "What is man, that you are mindful of him? or the son of man, that you visit him?
7 You have made him a little lower than αγγελους-Elohim; you crowned him with glory and honor, and have set him over the works of your hands:
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet", for in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him; but now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Yeshua, who was made a little lower than αγγελους-Elohim for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of Elohim should taste death for every man.


Yet when we look at this in the context of the Psalm that is quoted by the author we find Elohim in the Hebrew text while in the LXX-Septuagint we find αγγελους rendered from the Hebrew word Elohim in the same place. Which then does it mean here? and how should it be understood in the English translations of the Psalm? The outcome either way creates furious debate because it has heavy theological implications either way. The KJV here renders Elohim as angels but other translations render Elohim as God. Which one does the author intend?

Psalm 8:4-5 KJV
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels,
[Elohim] and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Psalm 8:4-5 ASV
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? And the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him but little lower than God,
[Elohim] And crownest him with glory and honor.

Elohim can mean God, messengers, angels, judges, mighty ones, false gods of the heathen, and is even used for "godly seed" in Malachi 2:15 which literally says "Elohim seed", (the true supernal meaning behind the infancy narratives).
It seems using the word "Elohim" causes a lot of misunderstandings in the translations.

Thank you daqq, your post are a joy to digest.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
 

daqq

Well-known member
From what remains of the Matthew immersion account we find a curious phrase in the immersion account concerning Yeshua, that is, the phrase πνευμα θεου, (without any definite article). Of critical note likewise is the fact that herein the voice of the Father from the heavens says something different; instead of "You are My Son", we read, "This is My Son". The phrase πνευμα θεου, (which may actually be a personal pronoun, proper name), is rarely used in the New Testament and first appears in the LXX-Septuagint in Genesis 1:2.

Genesis 1:1-2 M/T
1 In the beginning Elohim cuts down-creates the shamayim and the erets.
2 And the erets is formless, and vacuous-void; and darkness is upon the face of the abyss: and
Ruach Elohim is brooding upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:1-2 LXX
1 εν αρχη εποιησεν ο θεος τον ουρανον και την γην
2 η δε γη ην αορατος και ακατασκευαστος και σκοτος επανω της αβυσσου και
πνευμα θεου επεφερετο επανω του υδατος

πνευμα θεου = Ruach Elohim (no definite article in either language)
Ruach Elohim = the Dove (brooding / fluttering)

This form, "πνευμα θεου", (anarthrous / without an article), is a rare combination in the Apostolic writings:

It occurs first at the immersion of Yeshua in the Matthew account as follows:

Matthew 3:16-17 KJV
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

(Note that the KJV as well as all other English translations insert the definite article in English).

Matthew 3:16 W/H

16 βαπτισθεις δε ο ιησους ευθυς ανεβη απο του υδατος και ιδου ηνεωχθησαν οι ουρανοι και ειδεν
πνευμα θεου καταβαινον ωσει περιστεραν ερχομενον επ αυτον

"And he saw
Ruach Elohim descending, as if a Dove, coming upon him"

Next we see Paul equate πνευμα θεου with πνευμα χριστου ("Spirit of Meshiah" also without an article).

Romans 8:9 W/H
9 υμεις δε ουκ εστε εν σαρκι αλλα εν πνευματι ειπερ
πνευμα θεου οικει εν υμιν ει δε τις πνευμα χριστου ουκ εχει ουτος ουκ εστιν αυτου
9 Moreover you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that
Ruach Elohim dwells in you: but if any has not Ruach Meshiah the same is not his.

The only other place it occurs is in the following statement:

1 Corinthians 7:40
40 But she is happier if she abide as she is, after my judgment: and I think that I also have
πνευμα θεου / Ruach Elohim.

However, all flesh is not the same flesh:

1 Corinthians 15:39-44 KJV
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes,
and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


The natural body in the above passage is soma psuchikos, the spiritual body in the above passage is soma pneumatikos, and the form of the Dove in Luke 3:22 is somatiko which means that the body of the Dove in Luke is somatikos pneumatikos because the passage clearly speaks of the Pneuma [the Hagion] descending as a Dove. Thus the "flesh" of the Dove is of a spiritual nature and a spiritual body which could not have been held by death and could not have "seen corruption" just as the scripture says, (Peter in Acts 2:24-27 quoting from Psalms 16:8-11). Meshiah the Word, (the Memra), is not the man Yeshua but the Dove which descended from the heavens and abode-remained upon the man Yeshua throughout his ministry and through Golgotha: anyone who denies it needs to offer up an acceptable explanation for the word somatiko-corporeal which is found in Luke 3:22 concerning Ruach Elohim. Otherwise who is really denying that Meshiah has come in the flesh? The scripture says that all flesh is not the same flesh. Why do the Paulines not believe Paul enough to incorporate his doctrines into their own? If there is a natural body then there is an ethereal-spiritual body. :)
 

daqq

Well-known member
It seems using the word "Elohim" causes a lot of misunderstandings in the translations.

Thank you daqq, your post are a joy to digest.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

A pleasure, :) but I think when it comes to Elohim it is more the modern usage of "God", (Elohim), which causes the confusion. Most do not realize how elohim is actually used very broadly in the scriptures so whenever they hear the word "God", or Elohim, they automatically assume it means The Almighty Creator, (which it does not always necessarily mean). The problem for most is that this means more study, which is more time and love for some, but just more work for others. :crackup:
 

daqq

Well-known member
So then . . .

Matthew 3:16-17
16 βαπτισθεις δε ο ιησους ευθυς ανεβη απο του υδατος και ιδου ηνεωχθησαν | αυτω | οι ουρανοι και ειδεν πνευμα θεου καταβαινον ωσει περιστεραν | και | ερχομενον επ αυτον
17 και ιδου φωνη εκ των ουρανων λεγουσα ουτος εστιν ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος εν ω ευδοκησα

Matthew 3:16-17b
16 Moreover immersing by and by Yeshua ascended up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him; and He saw Ruach Elohim descending like a dove and coming upon him:
17 And behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying [to him], "This is My Son, . . ."


The Father says to Yeshua, "This is My Son, . . ."
 
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