These are NOT the same gospel

[Right Divider]

Nonresponsive.

On your part, yes.

 

[glorydaz]

God tells it CLEARLY in scripture, but your religious blinders to not allow you to see.

It still a mystery to so many. The churches have done such a disservice to mankind. Preaching a gospel that doesn't even apply to us.
Paul is basically ignored because his gospel can't be mixed in with the rest of the book. A real shame.

 

[Idolater]

Nope. It's only our body we wait for.
We are saved by grace when we believe....IN Christ....seated with Him in heavenly places.

I agree.

We believe unto righteousness, and our salvation signed sealed and done....awaiting only our spiritual body, as I mentioned.
Most important, our sins have been forgiven now...in the present. We cannot lose our salvation.

But you believe that we cannot even 'give it away', which is something else, where you believe that we lose the freedom to choose to not believe the Gospel, once we believe the Gospel.

We have NOW received the atonement.

The Jews, on the other hand, have to continue to keep the commandments and endure to the end....the coming of the Lord.

Again, we've see where the idea of enduring to the end is told to the Body as well, in Paul. There's no necessary conflict here, the text doesn't require there to be a conflict.

 

[Derf]

Shall be saved. Future tense for the Jews. Present tense for the body.

Despite the numerous times Paul talked about the future salvation.

Romans 5:9 (KJV)
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 (KJV)
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1 Corinthians 3:15 (KJV)
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

But you're really having a hard time admitting Jews are saved by grace, aren't you?

It's all a future salvation, because it's a salvation from death, and they aren't dead yet. It's all about the resurrection, remember.

 

[glorydaz]

Nonresponsive. "I'm looking for the words 'only' or 'not anybody else' or something delimiting like that, I can't find that." Also "just Israel and Judah" would be good. Anything along those lines. I can't find that in your excerpt, or anywhere else. I can find lots of cryptic references to Gentiles in the Old Testament though, and then we find, later on, that the New Covenant isn't just for Jews and Israelites after all, but it's for Gentiles too. Per Paul.

So that all fits together. No need for MAD.

So you must think we're living in the new covenant right now.
Well, you're not alone, but you're dead wrong.
This is another example of why the Bible is divided up in dispensations.

This is the new covenant, and it takes place when the Lord returns. This is when their sins may blotted out. See Acts 3.
This is talking about when the Lord sits on David's throne here on earth. There will be no teachers, elders, ministers (like we have now in the church age).

Jer. 31:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[glorydaz]

But you believe that we cannot even 'give it away', which is something else, where you believe that we lose the freedom to choose to not believe the Gospel, once we believe the Gospel.

That's part of the mystery. We are new creatures, bought with a price, sealed by the Spirit. We can still exercise our free will and have a loss of rewards when we stand before the judgement seat of Christ, but we cannot ever lose our salvation.

Again, we've see where the idea of enduring to the end is told to the Body as well, in Paul. There's no necessary conflict here, the text doesn't require there to be a conflict.

There is a big difference. They are told to endure in order to be saved.

We are told to endure as a good soldier.

2 Timothy 2:3
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

 

[Idolater]

So you must think we're living in the new covenant right now.

Of course. After all, it was Paul, writing to those formerly pagan Corinthians, who said and I quote 1st Corinthians 11:25 " After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

"New Testament" = New Covenant we know from 'parallel' passages in the KJV.
And how he says "as often as ye eat this bread..." means that this Corinthian 'church' was celebrating the 'Lord's Supper' or otherwise known as 'Communion'.

So they're all New Covenant.

Well, you're not alone, but you're dead wrong.
This is another example of why the Bible is divided up in dispensations.

This is the new covenant, and it takes place when the Lord returns. This is when their sins may blotted out. See Acts 3.
This is talking about when the Lord sits on David's throne here on earth. There will be no teachers, elders, ministers (like we have now in the church age).

Jer. 31:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

I trust the Apostles to instruct me on how to understand the Scripture, over even my own understanding.

 

[glorydaz]

Despite the numerous times Paul talked about the future salvation.

Romans 5:9 (KJV)
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 (KJV)
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Neither verse is talking about a future salvation.

Paul is talking about being saved from the future WRATH of God.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

This saved by His life refers to His resurrection life that we have IN US.
It's ongoing, continual, and present as long as we live in this body of flesh.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

1 Corinthians 3:15 (KJV)
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

LOL That is speaking of the judgement seat of Christ. Of course it's future.

1 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

LOL That verse has nothing to do with eternal salvation.

But you're really having a hard time admitting Jews are saved by grace, aren't you?

I know you have a hard time believing that works were required of the Jews.
If they were saved by Paul's gospel, they would no longer be Jews, but members of the body of Christ.

It's all a future salvation, because it's a salvation from death, and they aren't dead yet. It's all about the resurrection, remember.

One of those examples was saved in childbearing. You can't honestly say that is talking about SALVATION.

 

[glorydaz]

He held Peter to the standard of "the" Gospel, not "gospels".

Nope. Peter's gospel of the Kingdom is not even close to Paul's Gospel.

Semantics can never cover up the truth of what is written in God's word.

 

[JudgeRightly]

And Gentiles.

Wrong.

Scripture is specific about this. RD even cited it.

Disagreed, the Church is New Covenant.

Your disagreement changes nothing.

Not without knowledge, but without apprehension and without understanding for sure, which even extended to after the 'DBR' and Ascension, until Old Paul came around to save the day. Or the bacon.

Then Jesus preached the Gospel of the grace of God to His future Apostles before the 'DBR' happened.

You'd think that if Jesus were to preach grace, he would at least mention the word "grace" at some point during His earthly ministry...

But He never uttered the word once while on earth, as far as was recorded in scripture. I wonder why...

 

[JudgeRightly]

Acts 15:11 (KJV) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Yes, God's grace undergirded the requirements of the law.

Doesn't change the fact that Israel had to keep the commandments and endure.

 

[glorydaz]

Then Jesus preached the Gospel of the grace of God to His future Apostles before the 'DBR' happened.

Okay, instead of repeating this same claim over and over, you should read this. Duet. 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Luke 18:
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. 32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: 33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. 34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, God's grace undergirded the requirements of the law.

Doesn't change the fact that Israel had to keep the commandments and endure.

Well put. I wish I'd have thought of that.

 

[glorydaz]

Of course. After all, it was Paul, writing to those formerly pagan Corinthians, who said and I quote 1st Corinthians 11:25 " After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

"New Testament" = New Covenant we know from 'parallel' passages in the KJV.
And how he says "as often as ye eat this bread..." means that this Corinthian 'church' was celebrating the 'Lord's Supper' or otherwise known as 'Communion'.

Nope. On the contrary, Paul was scolding the Corinthians for their drunken party, saying they didn't even know what the Lord's Supper was, so he explained it to them. Do you see that "remembrance" being spoken of by Paul anywhere else, I'd be interested to see them.

So they're all New Covenant.

I trust the Apostles to instruct me on how to understand the Scripture, over even my own understanding.

The only Apostle you'd better be trusting is the Apostle Paul.

 

[Right Divider]

Nope. On the contrary, Paul was scolding the Corinthians for their drunken party, saying they didn't even know what the Lord's Supper was, so he explained it to them. Do you see that "remembrance" being spoken of by Paul anywhere else, I'd be interested to see them.

Yes, Paul said that when they came together... it was NOT to eat the Lord's Supper.

1Cor 11:20 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:20) When ye come together therefore into one place, [this] is not to eat the Lord's supper.

The only Apostle you'd better be trusting is the Apostle Paul.

1Cor 11:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:1) Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.

The reason that Paul said that in that way is the same reason that he wrote this:

2Cor 5:16 (AKJV/PCE)
(5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.

TODAY those following the 12 apostles that will sit on 12 throne judging the 12 tribes of Israel are doing it wrong.

 

[Derf]

Paul said that when they came together... it was NOT to eat the Lord's Supper.

Paul was rebuking them for eating the Lord's supper wrongly. You can tell if you just read the next verse.
1 Corinthians 11:20-21 (KJV) 20 When ye come together therefore into one place, [this] is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For in eating every one taketh before [other] his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

The purpose wasn't to eat and drink, but to remember the Lord's body and blood sacrificed for them. But they were making it a feast of selfishness.

 

[Derf]

Doesn't change the fact that Israel had to keep the commandments and endure.

Just like the BOC, at least in the enduring.

Colossians 1:22-23 (KJV) 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[Derf]

We sure don't want to be like Diotrephes, rejecting the authority of those God has placed over us.
3 John 1:9-10 (KJV) 9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth [them] out of the church.

 

[glorydaz]

Just like the BOC, at least in the enduring.

Colossians 1:22-23 (KJV) 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

That is not talking about losing salvation, but of being unreproveable in His sight. We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ where we will be judged according to the deeds done in the body. If it's "wood, hay, stubble" it will be burned up. That speaks specifically of rewards and loss of rewards. 1 Cor. 3 makes it clear. I've brought this portion of scripture up many times, but you seem to ignore it in your quest to show Paul taught salvation can be lost or that we must endure to the end to be saved. It suggests no such thing.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[glorydaz]

We sure don't want to be like Diotrephes, rejecting the authority of those God has placed over us.
3 John 1:9-10 (KJV) 9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth [them] out of the church.

That has nothing to do with the body of Christ, nor is it talking about the church of God.