These are NOT the same gospel

[Derf]

I don't believe Paul wrote to the Hebrews. He was the apostle to the gentiles. Besides which, he always acknowledged his authorship in his letters. Paul did go to the Jews first, but he was preaching his gospel of grace.


The main difference is when they will be saved. Peter makes it plain...he was speaking to the Jews when he said this. He even tells us why. A great read if you want to see why the Jews will have to endure to the end.

Acts 3
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Have you ever looked for how many times Paul used the word "hope". His message was almost entirely about the hope of salvation, and what we should be doing in the meantime.

That didn't mean they weren't currently saved, but that their salvation was to be manifested at a future time--at the resurrection.

It's all about the resurrection!

 

[Tambora]

And here's what Peter had to say about it:
Acts 15:9 (KJV) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:11 (KJV) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

So where's the difference?

Yep, the council of Jerusalem should put it to rest that they were all on board with the same gospel of salvation unto eternal life which was only by the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And yeah, those two verses you listed are clear as a bell.
They all believed God put no difference between the believers Peter and Paul were preaching to, and that they would all be saved the same way.
The "purifying their hearts by faith" in verse 9 is the circumcision of the heart.

And the Amos 9 quote James uses seals the deal as it is prophetic of them all being of the same tabernacle/temple/body of Christ.

Acts 15:16-17 KJV​

(16) After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:​

(17) That the residue of men [mankind] might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.​

James doesn't equate the restored tabernacle of David as any literal dwelling structure or literal ethnic group, but equates it theoretically to the body of a single individual --- the resurrected Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Just as Paul refers to a "tabernacle" as a body ---- 2 Cor 5:1 & 4.
So does Peter ---- 2 Peter 1:14.
And the author of Hebrews --- Heb 9:11.
The restored tabernacle is the body of Jesus restored from death at the resurrection.
It (His body/tabernacle) is the dwelling of all believers of the whole world of all nations.

And all of them, including Paul, are in agreement.

That prophesies were taken theoretically instead of literally happens often by the NT believers led by the Spirit.

Matthew does it with "out of Egypt I called my son".
By a literal reading of the prophesy he is quoting one sees it is speaking of the descendants of Jacob, but Matthew equates it theoretically as a single individual --- the Lord Jesus Christ.
Mat 2:15
Hos 11:1

Paul does the same here with the "seed".
By a literal reading of the prophetic saying one sees it is speaking of the descendants of Jacob, but Paul is equating it theologically to a single individual --- the Lord Jesus Christ.
Gal 3:16




Does that mean there will never be a literal restoration of the kingdom of Israel in the promised land as spoken by Amos and other prophets?
No.
But it does tell us that there is a much higher and deeper significance to all of it.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul--future:
1 Thessalonians 5:8 (KJV)
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Peter--present:
Acts 11:14 (KJV) Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Careful with that word "always".

You're missing what Paul is talking about when he refers to hope.

Romans 8:
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

 

[glorydaz]

Have you ever looked for how many times Paul used the word "hope". His message was almost entirely about the hope of salvation, and what we should be doing in the meantime.

That didn't mean they weren't currently saved, but that their salvation was to be manifested at a future time--at the resurrection.

It's all about the resurrection!

That's because you don't know we don't need a body to be alive.
You misunderstood Paul's words concerning being absent from the body and present with the Lord.

 

[Derf]

You're missing what Paul is talking about when he refers to hope.

Romans 8:
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

I'm not seeing how your quote in any way is different from what I wrote. The redemption of the body is the resurrection, and we groan for it to happen. We hope for it. We wait for it patiently.

 

[Derf]

I'd like to talk about the targets of the non-Pauline epistles, but I think I'll start a new thread someday soon.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm not seeing how your quote in any way is different from what I wrote. The redemption of the body is the resurrection, and we groan for it to happen. We hope for it. We wait for it patiently.

But we're saved when we believe. Our body is nothing compared to our soul.

 

[musterion]

Someone who doesn't believe in the pre-trib rapture is usually some kind of allegoricist (Catholics, for example); one who spiritualizes the Bible to mean only what they want it to mean, cherry picking when and where they want to take it literally. Such people NEVER have the right gospel.

 

[Right Divider]

Paul--future:
1 Thessalonians 5:8 (KJV)
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Peter--present:
Acts 11:14 (KJV) Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Careful with that word "always".

Shall be is future not present.

 

[Arial]

Romans 3:25

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood......

It is not His blood we worship. It is Him, and He is God.

 

[Right Divider]

It is not His blood we worship. It is Him, and He is God.

Where did glorydaz say that we should worship His blood? She didn't.

 

[Arial]

No it's not. You don't like my characterization of it, but it is not because I misunderstand it. I was a convicted Calvinist for many years; I know Calvinism from the inside.

You can characterize it any way you want. To say you know it inside out, does not mean that you understand it.

So you have to be of the position that if someone apparently 'loses' their faith then they never really had it to begin with. No other option.

If a person turns away and rejects what appeared to be faith (to others) then no, it was not genuine. They were giving assent to something, or trying to believe something, or were a part of something for whatever reason, but did not really believe or disbelieve. Then something else caught their attention and they walked away. That this happens is clear in the parable of the sower. And in the words "they went out from us because they were not really of us." It is not a position I have to take, it is what the Bible says, clearly, and in many places. Therefore those scriptures that some take to contradict this are in some way being misinterpreted. And by interpreting them properly and legitimately, with scripture, the paradox can be solved.

 

[Derf]

Shall be is future not present.

Of course--because it was the angel speaking of the words Peter would say. But those who heard Peter's account said:
Acts 11:18b (KJV) Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

But you're right that there's still a future aspect of it, just as there is Paul's. (That's because they're the same gospel!)

 

[Derf]

But we're saved when we believe. Our body is nothing compared to our soul.

Of course--this tabernacle will not be our permanent one until it is made incorruptible.

 

[Right Divider]

Of course--because it was the angel speaking of the words Peter would say. But those who heard Peter's account said:
Acts 11:18b (KJV) Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

But you're right that there's still a future aspect of it, just as there is Paul's. (That's because they're the same gospel!)

The gospel of the kingdom is NOT identical to the gospel of the grace of God (no matter how many times you beat that dead horse).

 

[Derf]

The gospel of the kingdom is NOT identical to the gospel of the grace of God (no matter how many times you beat that dead horse).

But you are admitting with your post that your arguments are insufficient, so all you can do is say the same thing over again, in hopes the repetition will make up for lack of substance.
I, however, have barely scratched the surface of material to present.

 

[Right Divider]

But you are admitting with your post that your arguments are insufficient, so all you can do is say the same thing over again, in hopes the repetition will make up for lack of substance.
I, however, have barely scratched the surface of material to present.

The gospel of the kingdom was the good news that God was about to fulfill His promises about the kingdom promised to Israel.
The gospel of the grace of God is that everyone can have salvation apart from Israel and their kingdom/covenants/promises/etc.

 

[Derf]

The gospel of the kingdom was the good news that God was about to fulfill His promises about the kingdom promised to Israel.
The gospel of the grace of God is that everyone can have salvation apart from Israel and their kingdom/covenants/promises/etc.

Yet Paul said Jesus told him this:
Acts 26:18 (KJV) To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
How can they be among them, yet not be in the same kingdom?

 

[Right Divider]

Yet Paul said Jesus told him this:
Acts 26:18 (KJV) To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
How can they be among them, yet not be in the same kingdom?

There are Jews and Gentiles (proselytes) in the kingdom.

Acts 2:10 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:10) Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

There is NEITHER Jew NOR Greek in the body of Christ.

Gal 3:28 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Derf]

There are Jews and Gentiles (proselytes) in the kingdom.

There is NEITHER Jew NOR Greek in the body of Christ.

You mean the kingdom Paul was preaching?

How many proselytes did the 12 make after Paul came on the scene?