These are NOT the same gospel

[musterion]

Well, that's pretty important, but even then the great thing about TOL is that we'll get to that. We'll find you out, if you don't believe. And then we'll talk about that, we'll argue and attempt to persuade you to believe, because of . . . reasons. We all have reasons. To believe.

But mainly we have evidence. And evidence either supports and is inconsistent with a claim, or it denies, is inconsistent or conflicts with it.

As far as I'm concerned if someone believes the Bible where it says that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died, was buried, and rose again on the third day, then I can work with them. Or on them.

And the Resurrection is the main thing as far as I'm concerned to argue and support with evidence when dealing with someone who does not believe.

Everybody has to contend with that claim and make a choice one way or the other about whether it is nonfiction or fiction, because there's no 'half-way' option available (though perhaps the Quran tries).

It's a strong argument.

If you won't believe Paul's gospel alone (to the exclusion of any other), you are not and will not be saved. Period. Nothing besides that matters and your love of incessant gainsaying will witness against you at the Great White Throne.

 

[Idolater]

If you won't believe Paul's gospel alone (to the exclusion of any other), you are not and will not be saved. Period. Nothing besides that matters

Agreed.

and your love of incessant gainsaying will witness against you at the Great White Throne.

No it won't.

 

[JudgeRightly]

But he never used that term in his epistles.

So?

But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. - Acts 20:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts20:24&version=NKJV

That's the only time it's used, it's by Paul, and it's several years after his conversion (which would have given him some time to digest what God had revealed to him).

 

[musterion]

I seem to recall (maybe I'm wrong) that there's actually no difference in Greek between "in" and "of."

Either way, I lean toward the position that the meaning has to be faith OF Christ.

Faith IN Christ doesn't save you because "It is BY GRACE ye are saved, through faith."

It's God's grace that saves us. The means through which He does it, is through our faith in what He tells us to believe: Christ's faithful work FOR us (the D.B.R.).

Could be wrong about that Greek wording thing, though.

PS

The above also means no one can take one atom of credit for being saved--not even because they chose to believe the Gospel. Faith (believing God) is never presented as a work. It's just the means through which God saves those who believe, because it's His GRACE that actually saves us.

He gets ALL the credit. We get none.

 

[glorydaz]

It was all FAITH IN GOD.

Romans 3:25

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood......

 

[glorydaz]

I seem to recall (maybe I'm wrong) that there's actually no difference in Greek between "in" and "of."

Either way, I lean toward the position that the meaning has to be faith OF Christ.

Faith IN Christ doesn't save you because "It is BY GRACE ye are saved, through faith."

It's God's grace that saves us. The means through which He does it, is through our faith in what He tells us to believe: Christ's faithful work FOR us (the D.B.R.).

Could be wrong about that Greek wording thing, though.

PS

The above also means no one can take one atom of credit for being saved--not even because they chose to believe the Gospel. Faith (believing God) is never presented as a work. It's just the means through which God saves those who believe, because it's His GRACE that actually saves us.

He gets ALL the credit. We get none.

It's interesting because all the translations up til the 19th century (I think it was) all translated those verse correctly "The faith of Jesus Christ", and ‘Pistis Christou’, is the term. It has to do with subjective case....they don't change it to "In" in "hand of God", for instance.

This is where Paul's statement "from faith to faith" comes in. The righteousness of God is revealed from the faith of Christ.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

And, check this out. The righteousness of God is certainly NOT revealed by our faith in Him coming upon all them that believe.
It's a very plain reading of scripture, and look what these translations have done. Oh, the righteousness of God is revealed by man's faith in God. What a crock that is.

Romans 3:22

Even the righteousness of God (which is by faith of Jesus Christ) unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 

[Tambora]

There are many faiths in the Bible. It all depends on what God is telling them at the time. Noah had faith and it was not the same as Abraham's... etc. etc. all through history.

How do you figure they did not have the same faith?
They both put their trust in the God of gods and no other.

 

[Tambora]

The council at Jerusalem should put to rest that the gospel unto eternal life through the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ was the same one they all were preaching.
They all taught that circumcision of the flesh and works of the law of Moses were not the criteria for eternal life.

 

[Right Divider]

But he never used that term in his epistles.

But he is quoted as using it in Acts.
His epistles describe it throughout.

 

[Right Divider]

How do you figure they did not have the same faith?
They both put their trust in the God of gods and no other.

They trusted God by trusting what He told them. Which was not the same for everyone.

 

[Tambora]

They trusted God by trusting what He told them. Which was not the same for everyone.

Then what is this "other faiths" you are talking about that lead to eternal life?

 

[Derf]

Our promise to be IN CHRIST and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption is in effect the moment we believe.


Hebrews was written to the Jews, and not by Paul. Tribulation Jews to be exact. The Jews will have to endure to the end and will have their sins blotted out when the Lord returns....at the time of refreshing.

Paul always went to the Jews first. Surely he could write to them if he wanted to. And letters are rarely written to people that don't exist. Maybe Hebrews will apply to tribulation Jews, but it must have also applied to the Jews who received it.

But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. - Acts 20:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts20:24&version=NKJV

That's the only time it's used, it's by Paul, and it's several years after his conversion (which would have given him some time to digest what God had revealed to him).

And here's what Peter had to say about it:
Acts 15:9 (KJV) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:11 (KJV) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

So where's the difference?

 

[Derf]

But he is quoted as using it in Acts.
His epistles describe it throughout.

And Peter described the same thing.
Acts 15:9 (KJV) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:11 (KJV) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

 

[JudgeRightly]

And here's what Peter had to say about it:
Acts 15:9 (KJV) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:11 (KJV) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

So where's the difference?

Why do you think Peter is talking about something that, chronologically speaking, had not been said yet by Paul?

You're quoting from Acts 15.

The phrase "the gospel of the grace of God" is in Acts 20. How do you get to, "here's what Peter had to say about [the phrase "the gospel of the grace of God"]" from Acts 15?

Here's the main problem:

Peter, in Acts 15, is talking about REQUIRING PAUL'S CONVERTS TO CIRCUMCISE!

And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” - Acts 15:7-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts15:7-11&version=NKJV

This is why you shouldn't cherry pick verses, Derf!!!

 

[Right Divider]

And Peter described the same thing.
Acts 15:9 (KJV) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:11 (KJV) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Salvation by faith. Again, not everything that Paul said was new.

But Peter always spoke about salvation as future. Whereas Paul spoke of present salvation.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul always went to the Jews first. Surely he could write to them if he wanted to.

I don't believe Paul wrote to the Hebrews. He was the apostle to the gentiles. Besides which, he always acknowledged his authorship in his letters. Paul did go to the Jews first, but he was preaching his gospel of grace.

And letters are rarely written to people that don't exist. Maybe Hebrews will apply to tribulation Jews, but it must have also applied to the Jews who received it.


And here's what Peter had to say about it:
Acts 15:9 (KJV) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:11 (KJV) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

So where's the difference?

The main difference is when they will be saved. Peter makes it plain...he was speaking to the Jews when he said this. He even tells us why. A great read if you want to see why the Jews will have to endure to the end.

Acts 3
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

 

[Tambora]

Salvation by faith. Again, not everything that Paul said was new.

But Peter always spoke about salvation as future. Whereas Paul spoke of present salvation.

Paul uses future tense also.

Romans 5:10 KJV
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Don't let tenses trip you up.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul uses future tense also.

Romans 5:10 KJV
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Don't let tenses trip you up.

Don't worry, I won't. Paul is speaking of something very simple. Reconciled by death and saved by His life (resurrection). We get it all when we undergo the operation of God.

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Derf]

Why do you think Peter is talking about something that, chronologically speaking, had not been said yet by Paul?

You're quoting from Acts 15.

The phrase "the gospel of the grace of God" is in Acts 20. How do you get to, "here's what Peter had to say about [the phrase "the gospel of the grace of God"]" from Acts 15?

Here's the main problem:

Peter, in Acts 15, is talking about REQUIRING PAUL'S CONVERTS TO CIRCUMCISE!

And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” - Acts 15:7-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts15:7-11&version=NKJV

This is why you shouldn't cherry pick verses, Derf!!!

???

 

[Derf]

Salvation by faith. Again, not everything that Paul said was new.

But Peter always spoke about salvation as future. Whereas Paul spoke of present salvation.

Paul--future:
1 Thessalonians 5:8 (KJV)
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Peter--present:
Acts 11:14 (KJV) Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Careful with that word "always".