These are NOT the same gospel

Right Divider

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But the Lord Jesus is our high priest. That's how 1st Corinthians 15:3 works, " ...Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures...," His death was a sacrificial offering (upon the 'altar' of the cross) to the Father on behalf of His Body, the Church. It was 'priestly' what He did.
Nope... the body of Christ has no priesthood. If it did, Paul would have told us about it.

His sacrifice FOR US was not according to any priesthood.

Please give us the scripture that equates the cross with an altar... it's not here.
 
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Arial

Active member
You do not see the faith of Jesus Christ and our faith in Him?

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
NIV, NLT,ESV, BSB, NKJV, etc. all say faith in Jesus Christ. The only one I found that translated it of Jesus Christ is the KJV. That is because it is
faith in Jesus that gives us the righteousness of Christ. The Bible, to my recollection never speaks of Jesus' faith.
I'm just trying to show you what scripture is actually saying.....not what you think it's saying.


Why does Paul say "From faith to faith" if there is only one faith?
If you are trying to show me what scripture is actually saying, and assume you know what I think it means, then you have to do more than simply quote the scripture. The scripture quoted will mean to me the same thing as it did before you quoted it.

There are a couple of ways to view faith to faith. Some see it as expressing a growing in faith. Others see it as by faith from first to last (NIV). Or the NLT "from start to finish." Both are valid truths. It is not speaking to two faiths.
 

Right Divider

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There are a couple of ways to view faith to faith. Some see it as expressing a growing in faith. Others see it as by faith from first to last (NIV). Or the NLT "from start to finish." Both are valid truths. It is not speaking to two faiths.
There are many faiths in the Bible. It all depends on what God is telling them at the time. Noah had faith and it was not the same as Abraham's... etc. etc. all through history.
 

JudgeRightly

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But the Lord Jesus is our high priest.

This is begging the question.

As I said later in the post you truncated, "priest," and the various forms of the word, shows up NOT ONCE in any of Paul's epistles.

He's Israel's High Priest. You know, Israel, the nation that 1/12th of which is literally comprised of priests.

Again, Paul NEVER ONCE mentions the word. Paul the one sent to the gentiles, who calls Christians "neither Jew nor Greek," which means there are no priests.

13 of the 27 books (nearly half) of the New Testament were written by Paul.

And yet, including Paul's Epistles, 18 of the 27 books don't contain any mention of priests or priesthoods, especially that of Israel's.

In other words: Of the mere third of the books of the NT that DOES contain references to priests, ALL of them are books addressed to Israel, and as mentioned above, most of those references are directly related to Israel.

That's how 1st Corinthians 15:3 works, " ...Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures...,"

Which doesn't relate to Jesus being a High Priest, does it?

His death was a sacrificial offering (upon the 'altar' of the cross) to the Father on behalf of His Body, the Church. It was 'priestly' what He did.

You're trying to make a connection that isn't there, Idolater.

There is nothing "priestly" about Christ dying on the cross, as not one of the priests of Israel sacrificed themselves for any sin, and in fact, God forbade human sacrifice!
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
NIV, NLT,ESV, BSB, NKJV, etc. all say faith in Jesus Christ. The only one I found that translated it of Jesus Christ is the KJV. That is because it is
faith in Jesus that gives us the righteousness of Christ. The Bible, to my recollection never speaks of Jesus' faith.

That's why I prefer the KJV. It doesn't remove the faith of Jesus Christ.
Do you doubt He had faith? We see right here the obedience of faith. He lived a life of faith and died in obedience of faith.

Philippians 2:8

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Do you think we are justified by our own faith in Him? Get a different Bible. One that doesn't remove the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.
If you are trying to show me what scripture is actually saying, and assume you know what I think it means, then you have to do more than simply quote the scripture. The scripture quoted will mean to me the same thing as it did before you quoted it.

There are a couple of ways to view faith to faith. Some see it as expressing a growing in faith. Others see it as by faith from first to last (NIV). Or the NLT "from start to finish." Both are valid truths. It is not speaking to two faiths.
I don't care how others see it. It's very clear from the Bible.

The righteousness of God which is by our faith in Him unto all them that believe? Seriously?

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Then I take that as a yes.

Even saved people can do whatever they choose to do.

Everything we do might get burned up at the Judgment Seat of Christ, but we will be saved, nonetheless. 1 Cor. 3:15
We have been bought with a price, and sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.
 

Arial

Active member
The gospel of the kingdom is the "good news" about the kingdom that God had promised to Israel.
But Jesus said "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say "See here!" or "See there!" For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Where does Jesus say that He came to restore the earthly kingdom to Israel?


I didn't.
Uh, yeah, you did.
The book of Acts is about the fall of Israel.
The book of Acts is a historical account of the growth of the early church.
If Jesus brought that good news, why is there not even one instance of the Lord using the word "grace" during His entire earthly ministry to Israel? The word "grace" is barely used at all in the "gospels" (i.e., Matthew, Mark, Luke and John).
Probably because He didn't need to. That is not what He was teaching at that time. He was revealing who He is and what He was going to do.
As a matter of fact, the word is entirely missing from Matthew and Mark.
In Luke and John there is no connection between grace and gospel at all.
So what?
But when we get to Paul, his epistles are saturated with grace. Paul uses the term 85 times!
The word charis (grace) is used 10 times by Peter in 1 Peter alone. It is mentioned once in Luke and six times in John. But that is not really the issue. No one is ever saved but for the grace of God. He owes no one anything.
There are many gospels in the Bible. Why does this bother you so?

The only person in the Bible who uses the term "the gospel of the grace of God" is Paul.
There is good news and bad news in the Bible. ONE thing goes by the name the GOSPEL. It is eternal life purchased for those who believe by the shed blood of Jesus. This was done for us by the grace of God. John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses. Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. It is through the blood of Christ and the sacrifice of His body that we come boldly before His throne of grace to receive mercy in our time of need.
 

Arial

Active member
That's why I prefer the KJV. It doesn't remove the faith of Jesus Christ.
Do you doubt He had faith? We see right here the obedience of faith. He lived a life of faith and died in obedience of faith.
It goes without saying that Jesus had faith. But that is not what the scripture is saying---it doesn't need said.
Do you think we are justified by our own faith in Him? Get a different Bible. One that doesn't remove the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Do you think we are justified by Jesus' faith? The faith we have to believe in the person and work of Jesus, is given to us by God Himself. My Bible(s) don' remove anything.
I don't care how others see it. It's very clear from the Bible.

The righteousness of God which is by our faith in Him unto all them that believe? Seriously?

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
The explanation you are responding to is about "faith to faith" so why are you talking agan about Rom 3:22? And you do care how others see it, even when you decide to stick strictly to the KJV. Those were people who translated it. The KJV, because of the old English language used is sometimes confusing and hard to follow. All the other translations did was put it in a more modern, therefore more easily understood way. We know from repeated scriptures that we are saved by faith in Christ. Nowhere but there and only in the KJV does it translate that word "of".
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
You're arguing the Bible with people who don't really believe it.
Well, that's pretty important, but even then the great thing about TOL is that we'll get to that. We'll find you out, if you don't believe. And then we'll talk about that, we'll argue and attempt to persuade you to believe, because of . . . reasons. We all have reasons. To believe.

But mainly we have evidence. And evidence either supports and is consistent with a claim, or it denies, is inconsistent or conflicts with it.

As far as I'm concerned if someone believes the Bible where it says that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died, was buried, and rose again on the third day, then I can work with them. Or on them.

And the Resurrection is the main thing as far as I'm concerned to argue and support with evidence when dealing with someone who does not believe.

Everybody has to contend with that claim and make a choice one way or the other about whether it is nonfiction or fiction, because there's no 'half-way' option available (though perhaps the Quran tries).

It's a strong argument.
 
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Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Jesus came to set up His Kingdom on earth, but the Jews rejected Him.
Yes but the evidence is consistent with that He knew that that was going to happen beforehand, and that therefore there was a different plan afoot from the beginning, in anticipation of His rejection.

This evidence is even back in the Old Testament. It seems that the 'Kingdom on earth' plan was diverted from a long time before Christ. It seems more like, Melchizedek was before Abraham and that the New Covenant has Christ as a priest in the same "order" (related to the word "ordain") as Melchizedek, and that the New Covenant, while being promised overtly to Judah and Israel, was also obliquely promised to Gentiles, which was not fully revealed and fully understood until Paul, as he explained in the introduction to Ephesians.
Therefore, it has been postponed until He comes again.
Well certainly, when He returns all questions are answered; we all believe that.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
This is simply a misunderstanding of irresistible grace
No it's not. You don't like my characterization of it, but it is not because I misunderstand it. I was a convicted Calvinist for many years; I know Calvinism from the inside.
, which would be better expressed as effective grace but then would not spell tulip. Acronyms have their place but often become slightly misleading or carry the potential for misunderstandings. When God sends the Holy Spirit to accomplish in someone a regeneration or new birth (John 3),that is an act of grace, and it is effective. When they hear, they believe. This grace has accomplished its purpose of bringing them to Christ, in essence, applying the substitutionary work that He did to them.

This cannot be undone. "I will lose none that You have given Me." I have tried to imagine unbelieving, just to see if it is possible. It isn't. The very thought is enough to strike a fear so profound it makes one run from the very possibility. Which of course means we truly, truly believe in the person and work of Jesus in redemption that the Bible shows us. A person who believes, is believing is doing so because they want to. Because they love Jesus and are utterly dependant upon Him. Whether we think it was our choice in the first place, or whether we believe it was all the work of a merciful God in us, is not the deciding factor. The content of the faith in Jesus abiding in us is what determines our salvation, not how we believe that came about.
So you have to be of the position that if someone apparently 'loses' their faith then they never really had it to begin with. No other option.
 
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