These are NOT the same gospel

[Arial]

You can see the faith of Jesus Christ and our faith in Him when we believe. From faith to faith...
Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith:...

Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Our faith grows as we grow in the word. The faith that is given to believe is a type of faith that must come from something higher than ourselves (deity) and when it is given, then it is in us.

Yes, all who believe do have faith in Jesus, and they have the righteousness of God imputed to them. What it does not say is that we make a choice to believe and that is what saves us.

 

[Derf]

This is simply a misunderstanding of irresistible grace, which would be better expressed as effective grace but then would not spell tulip. Acronyms have their place but often become slightly misleading or carry the potential for misunderstandings. When God sends the Holy Spirit to accomplish in someone a regeneration or new birth (John 3),that is an act of grace, and it is effective. When they hear, they believe. This grace has accomplished its purpose of bringing them to Christ, in essence, applying the substitutionary work that He did to them.

This cannot be undone. "I will lose none that You have given Me." I have tried to imagine unbelieving, just to see if it is possible. It isn't. The very thought is enough to strike a fear so profound it makes one run from the very possibility. Which of course means we truly, truly believe in the person and work of Jesus in redemption that the Bible shows us. A person who believes, is believing is doing so because they want to. Because they love Jesus and are utterly dependant upon Him. Whether we think it was our choice in the first place, or whether we believe it was all the work of a merciful God in us, is not the deciding factor. The content of the faith in Jesus abiding in us is what determines our salvation, not how we believe that came about.

Billy Graham and Charles Templeton: The Sad Tale of Two Evangelists - Credo House Ministries

Billy Graham and Charles Templeton lived very similar lives as Christian evangelists but eventually took very different paths. What made the difference?

credohouse.org

 

[glorydaz]

You weren't asking me, but that rarely stops me from jumping in.

I think the verse is talking about God's ability to save, not man's ability to be saved. And I think salvation is primarily focused on the resurrection.

Thus, Paul is talking about committing something to God--his future state. And that future state is life, even after death. Paul is confident that God will be able to raise him from death. And he is expending his current existence on helping others to know that God can save them from death, too.

Please jump in anytime, Derf. Your thoughts are always welcome. Yes, God's ability to save. I certainly concur. He is able to keep...

Did you notice what Paul says here? I'm betting you have something to say about that. It's certainly made me start thinking of a response to your thoughts. You mention resurrection, but I can't help but notice that our LIFE is in Christ.

2 Tim. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

 

[glorydaz]

Our faith grows as we grow in the word. The faith that is given to believe is a type of faith that must come from something higher than ourselves (deity) and when it is given, then it is in us.

You seem to have missed the most important part of that verse.....the faith of Jesus Christ., which will answer your surmise in red.

Don't you see the two faiths here? "faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe"

His faith "unto all and upon all them" that believe (faith).

Yes, all who believe do have faith in Jesus, and they have the righteousness of God imputed to them. What it does not say is that we make a choice to believe and that is what saves us.

This is our faith. From faith to faith....

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Tambora]

You weren't asking me, but that rarely stops me from jumping in.

Atta boy!

 

[Arial]

Billy Graham and Charles Templeton: The Sad Tale of Two Evangelists - Credo House Ministries

Billy Graham and Charles Templeton lived very similar lives as Christian evangelists but eventually took very different paths. What made the difference?

credohouse.org

I read what you posted. I am not sure what your intent was or if it was refuting what I posted or adding to it. It truly is a sad story, and heart breaking. And a great observation that the mind is involved with faith. And there is a place I believe, where we decide to believe what we find in the Bible, but to me that is not the same thing as making that initial move towards Christ as Savior. I think we love God because He first loved us. I believe Jesus' words, "You did not choose me, I chose you." (And yes I realize it could be said that He was talking about the twelve, but there was no resistance or wavering on there part. He called. They came. And one has to wonder about that.) I believe that God works on a person, maybe for years, maybe for an instant, but He prepares them to hear that call and come to Christ. And after that we can continue to question and question and question everything we read in the Bible and check it against what our minds can understand, or what other sources tell us, or we can just believe what we read in the bible because it is God.

And in the sad story, the person who walked away gave mental consent to what he was preaching but something had not penetrated his mind and his heart. I do not think it is an example of a person losing their salvation, or turning their back on it. Of course I do not know. I can only go by what the Bible says about it. That Jesus will lose none who are His. That they were purchased by His very blood shed on the cross. And that cannot be torn asunder by any man, not eve ourselves.

 

[Derf]

I read what you posted. I am not sure what your intent was or if it was refuting what I posted or adding to it. It truly is a sad story, and heart breaking. And a great observation that the mind is involved with faith. And there is a place I believe, where we decide to believe what we find in the Bible, but to me that is not the same thing as making that initial move towards Christ as Savior. I think we love God because He first loved us. I believe Jesus' words, "You did not choose me, I chose you." (And yes I realize it could be said that He was talking about the twelve, but there was no resistance or wavering on there part. He called. They came. And one has to wonder about that.) I believe that God works on a person, maybe for years, maybe for an instant, but He prepares them to hear that call and come to Christ. And after that we can continue to question and question and question everything we read in the Bible and check it against what our minds can understand, or what other sources tell us, or we can just believe what we read in the bible because it is God.

And in the sad story, the person who walked away gave mental consent to what he was preaching but something had not penetrated his mind and his heart. I do not think it is an example of a person losing their salvation, or turning their back on it. Of course I do not know. I can only go by what the Bible says about it. That Jesus will lose none who are His. That they were purchased by His very blood shed on the cross. And that cannot be torn asunder by any man, not eve ourselves.

But from our vantage point, the one that perseveres to the end is the one that is saved--not saved by the perseverance, but evidenced by it.

 

[Derf]

Please jump in anytime, Derf. Your thoughts are always welcome. Yes, God's ability to save. I certainly concur. He is able to keep...

Did you notice what Paul says here? I'm betting you have something to say about that. It's certainly made me start thinking of a response to your thoughts. You mention resurrection, but I can't help but notice that our LIFE is in Christ.

2 Tim. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

The PROMISE of life.

 

[glorydaz]

I read what you posted. I am not sure what your intent was or if it was refuting what I posted or adding to it. It truly is a sad story, and heart breaking. And a great observation that the mind is involved with faith. And there is a place I believe, where we decide to believe what we find in the Bible, but to me that is not the same thing as making that initial move towards Christ as Savior. I think we love God because He first loved us. I believe Jesus' words, "You did not choose me, I chose you." (And yes I realize it could be said that He was talking about the twelve, but there was no resistance or wavering on there part. He called. They came. And one has to wonder about that.) I believe that God works on a person, maybe for years, maybe for an instant, but He prepares them to hear that call and come to Christ. And after that we can continue to question and question and question everything we read in the Bible and check it against what our minds can understand, or what other sources tell us, or we can just believe what we read in the bible because it is God.

And in the sad story, the person who walked away gave mental consent to what he was preaching but something had not penetrated his mind and his heart. I do not think it is an example of a person losing their salvation, or turning their back on it. Of course I do not know. I can only go by what the Bible says about it. That Jesus will lose none who are His. That they were purchased by His very blood shed on the cross. And that cannot be torn asunder by any man, not eve ourselves.

There's really nothing complicated about it.

1 Cor. 3:
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[glorydaz]

But from our vantage point, the one that perseveres to the end is the one that is saved--not saved by the perseverance, but evidenced by it.

From our vantage point that holier than thou sitting in the front row....or even at the pulpit might appear to be saved....might appear to be persevering. So, really, our vantage point is worth about 25 cents at the barber shop. If we have no assurance of salvation, we'd best examine ourselves whether we be in the faith.

 

[glorydaz]

The PROMISE of life.

2 Cor. 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

 

[Derf]

2 Cor. 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Yes, but it's still a hope. We can be assured of the promise being fulfilled, but it hasn't been yet. What promise is it Paul is mostly speaking of?
Hebrews 11:39-40 (KJV) 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

2 Timothy 1:1 (KJV)
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, but it's still a hope. We can be assured of the promise being fulfilled, but it hasn't been yet.

Our promise to be IN CHRIST and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption is in effect the moment we believe.

What promise is it Paul is mostly speaking of?
Hebrews 11:39-40 (KJV) 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

2 Timothy 1:1 (KJV)
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Hebrews was written to the Jews, and not by Paul. Tribulation Jews to be exact. The Jews will have to endure to the end and will have their sins blotted out when the Lord returns....at the time of refreshing.

 

[Arial]

But from our vantage point, the one that perseveres to the end is the one that is saved--not saved by the perseverance, but evidenced by it.

True. And the one who perseveres does so because he is saved. It is God holding him up and keeping him.

I would say that persevering means that the person never lets go of their faith. There may be times when we get caught up in things we shouldn't, and there may be no visible indications of salvation seen, where before there was. But if a person is truly joined to Christ through faith, there will be something within them that has not let go---and will in time, be established again on the right path. It can often be a growing experience for the person.

 

[Arial]

You seem to have missed the most important part of that verse.....the faith of Jesus Christ., which will answer your surmise in red.

Don't you see the two faiths here? "faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe"

His faith "unto all and upon all them" that believe (faith).

No. I do not see two faiths there.

This is our faith. From faith to faith....

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

That is like saying the definition of faith is faith. What are you trying to say?

If we have been given what is necessary for a man who is at enmity with God, when we hear the things of God, we will believe them. If we have not been given, we will not.

 

[Arial]

There's really nothing complicated about it.

I wasn't confused.

 

[Right Divider]

It seems that nobody paid any attention to the Bible quotes in the OP. They were the main point of the post.

Mark says that "the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ" was when John the baptizer began his ministry.
Paul, on the other hand, says that "in the beginning of the gospel" was "when I departed from Macedonia".

Those are TWO distinctly different TIMES separated by MANY YEARS.

So, how can they BOTH be the beginning of the SAME gospel? (Hint: they can't).

 

[Tambora]

It seems that nobody paid any attention to the Bible quotes in the OP. They were the main point of the post.

Mark says that "the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ was when John the baptizer began his ministry.
Paul, on the other hand, says that "in the beginning of the gospel" was "when I departed from Macedonia".

Those are TWO distinctly different TIMES separated by MANY YEARS.

So, how can they BOTH be the beginning of the SAME gospel? (Hint: they can't).

I don't think most deny there were not different instances of good news pertaining to different things.
The specific good news inquired about is which one makes eternal life possible for mankind.

 

[Right Divider]

I don't think most deny there were not different instances of good news pertaining to different things.

Actually, it seems that most do deny that. Whenever we bring it up there is tremendous opposition to it.

The specific good news inquired about is which one makes eternal life possible for mankind.

Not in this thread.

What was the "gospel" that Mark was talking about?
What was the "gospel" that Paul was talking about?

 

[Idolater]

What was the "gospel" that Mark was talking about?

Mark 1:15 " And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

What was the "gospel" that Paul was talking about?

Philippians 4:5 "The Lord is at hand."

v. 15 " Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only."

So there were already churches in the beginning of the Gospel, which churches are these?