These are NOT the same gospel

[glorydaz]

Why not???
It was you that decided to start believing, and it is you that decides to continue to believe.
No works involved with either.



I don't care how shocked you are about anything.
I still believe and I know it is me that makes the choice to continue to believe and to continue not to rebel against YHWH for another.

2 Timothy 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

I'm sorry, but when we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise, we have surrendered our very soul and spirit to the Lord. He now owns us, and we are His workmanship to do with as He pleases in order to conform us into His image. We have been bought with a price....a big price (the blood of Christ).

1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

We have already received the atonement. Bought and paid for by God Almighty.

What YOU decide after believing can never loose you out of His hand.

 

[Tambora]

2 Timothy 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

I'm sorry, but when we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise, we have surrendered our very soul and spirit to the Lord. He now owns us, and we are His workmanship to do with as He pleases in order to conform us into His image. We have been bought with a price....a big price (the blood of Christ).

1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

We have already received the atonement. Bought and paid for by God Almighty.

What YOU decide after believing can never loose you out of His hand.

You might be reading that wrong.

 

[glorydaz]

You might be reading that wrong.

Maybe. What do you think it means?

 

[musterion]

Well, the Catholics don't preach the Gospel, so it doesn't matter.

Maybe Tam now thinks that they do.

 

[musterion]

2nd and 3rd admonishments have been offered and rejected, I'm done here.

Know this: no one who firmly believes they have to go through Israel's tribulation is believing Paul's gospel. They have been deceived into believing another gospel of works that requires their faithful perseverance or they'll be cut off, cast out, and go to the Lake of Fire.

So it isn't God's grace they count on to save them NOW but their own will and choice to persevere [work] through it THEN, even unto death if necessary. If they don't, they'll burn.

Tam has made it quite clear that she believes this. Decide for yourself what that means.

Out.

 

[Idolater]

Do you seriously think that God is not able to keep those who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit?

But what can that mean, aside from that once you believe Paul's Gospel, then even if you want to not believe it anymore, you have no choice anymore. That just sounds like Calvinism's "I" which is 'irresistible grace'. It means you don't have a choice. It can't mean anything else. And it makes us into fish, which is literally something Dispensationalism rejects----the only fish in the New Testament are the lost sheep, not Gentiles. So it can't be that believing Paul's Gospel to the uncircumcision turns you into a fish.

It makes you a fish because once you catch a fish, it's caught. It's over.

 

[Idolater]

And the Body of Christ is never once referred to as a priesthood by Paul.

Argument from silence.

 

[Idolater]

Out.

Of bullets.

 

[glorydaz]

But what can that mean, aside from that once you believe Paul's Gospel, then even if you want to not believe it anymore, you have no choice anymore. That just sounds like Calvinism's "I" which is 'irresistible grace'. It means you don't have a choice. It can't mean anything else. And it makes us into fish, which is literally something Dispensationalism rejects----the only fish in the New Testament are the lost sheep, not Gentiles. So it can't be that believing Paul's Gospel to the uncircumcision turns you into a fish.

It makes you a fish because once you catch a fish, it's caught. It's over.

Not at all. Would you allow your six year old to not want to mind anymore? No, you'd chasten him and teach him....nurture him.

When we believe, we trust also, and we put our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Then it's His responsibility to keep us.
Bought and paid for by the blood.

Does that mean we won't stumble and fall? Does it mean we won't do something worthy of death?
Does it mean we won't ever turn our back on the Lord? Of course not. We can and we undoubtedly will at some point in our walk with the Lord.

But, we are sealed, saved, forgiven, crucified with Christ, born of the Spirit.....we are His. We have been given eternal life.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Argument from silence.

Not necessarily.

The authors of the Bible worded what they said very carefully. Paul included. The fact that he DID NOT mention fits very well with what he said about members of the Body of Christ being "neither Jew nor Greek."

The holy priesthood of Israel was, by definition, of the Jews. Therefore, "neither Jew nor Greek" excludes any form of priesthood.

In addition, every mention of priests and priesthoods (apart from instances where it's talking about pagans, and excluding the references to the Order of Melchizedek in Hebrews) has to do with Israel specifically, and that fact is made obvious by the context. In fact, aside from the several hundred mentions of priest, priests, priesthood, etc, in the Old Testament, there are 26 mentions in Matthew (with one questionable mention that is likely only referring to pagan priests in Herod's court near the beginning of Matthew) that specifically refer to Israel's priesthood, 22 mentions in Mark, 23 in Luke, 21 in John, 24 in Acts (the 25th being a priest of Zeus, and thus is one of the exceptions mentioned above), about 23 in Hebrews with a few of those questionable, but only because they could be referring to Israel's priesthood, priesthoods in general, or the priests of the Order of Melchizedek, 2 in 1 Peter, and 3 in Revelation, all of which refer to Israel in some way or another.

None of those examples, even including the ones that aren't specifically about Israel, mention anything that would be at all relevant to the Body of Christ, which Paul describes as a creature, an organism with many members, and not a nation of priests.

 

[Tambora]

2nd and 3rd admonishments have been offered and rejected, I'm done here.

Know this: no one who firmly believes they have to go through Israel's tribulation is believing Paul's gospel. They have been deceived into believing another gospel of works that requires their faithful perseverance or they'll be cut off, cast out, and go to the Lake of Fire.

So it isn't God's grace they count on to save them NOW but their own will and choice to persevere [work] through it THEN, even unto death if necessary. If they don't, they'll burn.

Tam has made it quite clear that she believes this. Decide for yourself what that means.

Out.

Now you resort to lies.
I have maintained all along that salvation unto eternal life is by grace through believing faith, not works.

 

[Arial]

But what can that mean, aside from that once you believe Paul's Gospel, then even if you want to not believe it anymore, you have no choice anymore. That just sounds like Calvinism's "I" which is 'irresistible grace'. It means you don't have a choice. It can't mean anything else. And it makes us into fish, which is literally something Dispensationalism rejects----the only fish in the New Testament are the lost sheep, not Gentiles. So it can't be that believing Paul's Gospel to the uncircumcision turns you into a fish.

It makes you a fish because once you catch a fish, it's caught. It's over.

This is simply a misunderstanding of irresistible grace, which would be better expressed as effective grace but then would not spell tulip. Acronyms have their place but often become slightly misleading or carry the potential for misunderstandings. When God sends the Holy Spirit to accomplish in someone a regeneration or new birth (John 3),that is an act of grace, and it is effective. When they hear, they believe. This grace has accomplished its purpose of bringing them to Christ, in essence, applying the substitutionary work that He did to them.

This cannot be undone. "I will lose none that You have given Me." I have tried to imagine unbelieving, just to see if it is possible. It isn't. The very thought is enough to strike a fear so profound it makes one run from the very possibility. Which of course means we truly, truly believe in the person and work of Jesus in redemption that the Bible shows us. A person who believes, is believing is doing so because they want to. Because they love Jesus and are utterly dependant upon Him. Whether we think it was our choice in the first place, or whether we believe it was all the work of a merciful God in us, is not the deciding factor. The content of the faith in Jesus abiding in us is what determines our salvation, not how we believe that came about.

 

[Tambora]

But what can that mean, aside from that once you believe Paul's Gospel, then even if you want to not believe it anymore, you have no choice anymore. That just sounds like Calvinism's "I" which is 'irresistible grace'. It means you don't have a choice. It can't mean anything else. And it makes us into fish, which is literally something Dispensationalism rejects----the only fish in the New Testament are the lost sheep, not Gentiles. So it can't be that believing Paul's Gospel to the uncircumcision turns you into a fish.

It makes you a fish because once you catch a fish, it's caught. It's over.

Well yeah.
A doctrine in which you can reject faith in YHWH for faith of another.
Saved by grace through faith becomes saved by grace through any type of faith anyone decides to holds to.

 

[Tambora]

This cannot be undone. "I will lose none that You have given Me.

Except further details in another verse says one given Him was lost.

John 17:12 ESV
(12) While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[Arial]

Except further details in another verse says one given Him was lost.

John 17:12 ESV
(12) While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

True, but it also says why Judas was given and why he was lost. That the scriptures might be fulfilled. I don't think he was given in the same sense that a saved person is given. Even in Judas' life there was evidence that his spiritual union with Jesus was not real. He was a thief for one and betrayed Jesus for money. He was serving money, not God.

 

[Arial]

Well yeah.
A doctrine in which you can reject faith in YHWH for faith of another.
Saved by grace through faith becomes saved by grace through any type of faith anyone decides to holds to.

The faith that saves is specific in its content and is not something we have within ourselves, but must be given from a source greater than ourselves. The word used for faith in the famous Eph 2 scripture is translated from a Greek word that carries that specific nuance.

 

[glorydaz]

The faith that saves is specific in its content and is not something we have within ourselves, but must be given from a source greater than ourselves. The word used for faith in the famous Eph 2 scripture is translated from a Greek word that carries that specific nuance.

You can see the faith of Jesus Christ and our faith in Him when we believe. From faith to faith...
Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith:...

Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 

[glorydaz]

Well yeah.
A doctrine in which you can reject faith in YHWH for faith of another.
Saved by grace through faith becomes saved by grace through any type of faith anyone decides to holds to.

Very odd indeed.

 

[glorydaz]

You might be reading that wrong.

So, what are you thinking about that verse?

 

[Derf]

2 Timothy 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

I'm sorry, but when we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise, we have surrendered our very soul and spirit to the Lord. He now owns us, and we are His workmanship to do with as He pleases in order to conform us into His image. We have been bought with a price....a big price (the blood of Christ).

1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

We have already received the atonement. Bought and paid for by God Almighty.

What YOU decide after believing can never loose you out of His hand.

You might be reading that wrong.

So, what are you thinking about that verse?

You weren't asking me, but that rarely stops me from jumping in.

I think the verse is talking about God's ability to save, not man's ability to be saved. And I think salvation is primarily focused on the resurrection.

Thus, Paul is talking about committing something to God--his future state. And that future state is life, even after death. Paul is confident that God will be able to raise him from death. And he is expending his current existence on helping others to know that God can save them from death, too.