These are NOT the same gospel

[Tambora]

Because what you have said the past few days doesn't seem to sync up.

On the one hand, you warn that saved people must persevere in worship of YHWH [self-effort] or go to Hell, because they can choose to walk away.

But on the other hand you provide this...



There's a big contradiction there, ma'am.

It's not a contradiction to say your trusting faith must be in YHWH only CONTINUALLY.

 

[Tambora]

She just told you.

IF you're saying salvation depends on you continuing in faith (because you can choose to walk away from Christ and be lost) then you don't actually have salvation. That's a form of probation: God presumably would not know what you're going to do, so He must be waiting to see whether you persevere in worshipping Him or turn away from Him.

That's salvation by work, which isn't salvation at all but another gospel.

Who you decide to place your trusting faith in is not a work.

 

[musterion]

Who you decide to place your trusting faith in is not a work.

It IS a work when continuing in it by your own effort is what determines whether you go to Heaven. That is NOT what Paul taught, but it seems to be what you now believe.

 

[musterion]

Who you decide to place your trusting faith in is not a work.

No, but failure to maintain that faith because you just didn't want to sends you to Hell? That's Catholicism. Or proved you had fake faith and were never actually saved? That's Calvinism.

 

[Tambora]

It IS a work when continuing in it by your own effort is what determines whether you go to Heaven. That is NOT what Paul taught, but it seems to be what you now believe.

No it is not a work.
If your believing faith was a work then it would be merited and not grace.
So do you claim that when you made the decision to place your believing faith in Christ that you merited it????

 

[glorydaz]

How is persevering your believing faith a work?

Persevering in faith is fine....thinking you must do it to remain saved is error.

 

[musterion]

Persevering in faith is fine....

And will happen for the saved. Paul said God guarantees it.

thinking you must do it to remain saved is error.

Exactly.

 

[Tambora]

Persevering in faith is fine....thinking you must do it to remain saved is error.

I'm going to have to disagree.
Believing faith is what it takes to have eternal life.
If that goes away, then there is only one conclusion.

 

[musterion]

No it is not a work.
If your believing faith was a work then it would be merited and not grace.
So do you claim that when you made the decision to place your believing faith in Christ that you merited it????

Nope, merit has zip to do with it, no more than a helpless dying man has merit when he trusts paramedics do CPR on him before the lights go out for good. No boasting is possible.

But theoretically, you could boast to God when you see Him that you were a good girl who chose not to turn away from Him, claiming some credit for your salvation because you helped Him save you.

 

[musterion]

I'm going to have to disagree.
Believing faith is what it takes to have eternal life.
If that goes away, then there is only one conclusion.

If I ask you an honest question, will you give an honest answer?

If you share the gospel with someone, what are you going to tell them Christ did for them?

 

[Tambora]

Nope, merit has zip to do with it, no more than a helpless dying man has merit when he trusts paramedics do CPR on him before the lights go out for good. No boasting is possible.

But theoretically, you could boast to God when you see Him that you were a good girl who chose not to turn away from Him, claiming some credit for your salvation because you helped Him save you.

Likewise, one could say that you putting your believing faith in God helped you be saved.
Your initial trusting faith is no more a work than your continuance of trusting faith is.

 

[glorydaz]

Then anyone that abandons worship of YHWH for another won't be there.
Thanks for agreeing.
So why have you been acting as though what I said is a problem?

The only problem I can see is in the eye of the beholder.
Jesus knows those who are His, even if those in the world see an idolator or a reprobate.

Therefore, the "abandoning worship of God" can appear to be true to men, but if they were truly saved, they are saved forever.

 

[musterion]

Likewise, one could say that you putting your believing faith in God helped you be saved.

No.

Your initial trusting faith is no more a work than your continuance of trusting faith is.

I am shocked and saddened to see you using the same exact arguments that a dozen Catholics and cultists have used on both of us over the years. You weren't like this before. I don't know what happened to you but I feel so sorry for where you're at now.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm going to have to disagree.
Believing faith is what it takes to have eternal life.
If that goes away, then there is only one conclusion.

Yep, that it wasn't believing faith after all.
Which is why we tell people to examine themselves whether they be in the faith.

 

[glorydaz]

Likewise, one could say that you putting your believing faith in God helped you be saved.
Your initial trusting faith is no more a work than your continuance of trusting faith is.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

via the Gospel of Salvation.

Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 

[Derf]

I don't get it either.
To preach the gospel to a crowd in a tongue they can't understand is a futile way to preach the gospel.

And Paul speaks against it.
1 Corinthians 14:4 (KJV) He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

 

[Tambora]

No.

Why not???
It was you that decided to start believing, and it is you that decides to continue to believe.
No works involved with either.

I am shocked and saddened to see you using the same exact arguments that a dozen Catholics and cultists have used on both of us over the years. You weren't like this before. I don't know what happened to you but I feel so sorry for where you're at now.

I don't care how shocked you are about anything.
I still believe and I know it is me that makes the choice to continue to believe and to continue not to rebel against YHWH for another.

 

[Tambora]

And Paul speaks against it.
1 Corinthians 14:4 (KJV) He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Yeah, it makes no sense that if you want to communicate the gospel to someone you do so in a language they can understand, otherwise you are just making noise.

 

[glorydaz]

Yeah, it makes no sense that if you want to communicate the gospel to someone you do so in a language they can understand, otherwise you are just making noise.

Well, the Catholics don't preach the Gospel, so it doesn't matter.

 

[Idolater]

Yeah, it makes no sense that if you want to communicate the gospel to someone you do so in a language they can understand, otherwise you are just making noise.

I don't know that Mass was about preaching the Gospel from Trent to Vatican II so much as it was like the pinnacle of celebrating the Eucharist, which is like when the Levitical high priests would go into the holy-of-holies; they were doing that just for God, it was the most sacred human thing we could do, and what was said then was said in Hebrew and it wouldn't have changed even if nobody spoke Hebrew anymore, because it wasn't for them, it was for God.

The Latin Mass was prayed all around the whole world for near 400 years, and from what I hear, from those who attended it, it was beautiful. But it's probably right to say it wasn't ideal for because it wasn't designed for preaching the Gospel.

Nowadays with the Mass prayed in 'the vernacular' common languages, it naturally becomes more evangelistic, since the Lord's sacrificial death, burial and Resurrection are openly celebrated every single Mass during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.