The Trinity

[keypurr]

The Son of Man is how Jesus referred to himself as when to emphasis his role as the child of Isaiah 9:6. Mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, but come unto us in the flesh.

"No man has seen God" needs clarification as to your meaning. Moses was a man and God talked to him face to face.

Christ said NO MAN has seen God except the ONE that came DOWN from God.

That clearly states that only the spirit son came down from God. Jesus was born as a man. When the Dove landed on Jesus and the spirit took over, only then did the spirit speak through him. This means that the Christ was IN Jesus and they became one.

Isaiah 9.6 is a very contested verse also. Entire threads have been made of this one.,

 

[keypurr]

If you are limiting God to one name you are mistaken. As testified by Moses,

Exodus 6:2-3 KJV
And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord : [3] And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

True, different cultures use a name they have.

God uses different names for different occasions. The name he has made himself known by now is JESUS.

I differ friend. God did not send himself. He sent his spirit son, the express image, to dwell as a human in Jesus who was the body prepared for the spirit son. Heb 10:5

Philippians 2:9-10 KJV
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Notice that JESUS is above every other name. Now notice that Paul himself acknowledges JESUS as God when you see the origin of his quote. See also Romans 14:11...

Isaiah 45:22-23 KJV
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. [23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Keypurr, your theories are running into conflict with scripture all over the place. I am good with what Paul and Jesus said, without needing to explain them away to substitute your conclusions. Just give up and accept what the words actually say. Your reasoning has been flawed.

You fail to see that Jesus was elevated to Lord of all creation by his God AFTER he rose into heaven. He is Lord, his God and our God tells us that. But he is still not the most high God. He is "a" god, a form of God, he is the exact image of his Father, a creation, a creature. Not God.

My theories are only supported by scripture, it makes the words of God come alive. For God so loved the world he sent his only begotten son to die for us. This son became flesh, it was not flesh, it became flesh. Jesus did not exist before he was born, but the spirit he was given did.

Do not relay on the KJV alone or you will never see the truth.

 

[Rosenritter]

True, different cultures use a name they have.



I differ friend. God did not send himself. He sent his spirit son, the express image, to dwell as a human in Jesus who was the body prepared for the spirit son. Heb 10:5




You fail to see that Jesus was elevated to Lord of all creation by his God AFTER he rose into heaven. He is Lord, his God and our God tells us that. But he is still not the most high God. He is "a" god, a form of God, he is the exact image of his Father, a creation, a creature. Not God.

My theories are only supported by scripture, it makes the words of God come alive. For God so loved the world he sent his only begotten son to die for us. This son became flesh, it was not flesh, it became flesh. Jesus did not exist before he was born, but the spirit he was given did.

Do not relay on the KJV alone or you will never see the truth.

So you admit at least that the KJV does declare Jesus as God? Why not address any of the other evidences which were not translation specific?

 

[achduke]

Keypurr, this is by no means an isolated incident. Everyone else in that Bible, apostle or angel, always objected when someone tried to worship them. Worship God, they said. What does Jesus do? He lets them worship him and acknowledge him as God.

That would be very strange indeed were He not actually God.

The Angel of the Lord did not object when Joshua bowed down to him.


Joshua 5:13-15 13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

 

[Rosenritter]

The Angel of the Lord did not object when Joshua bowed down to him.


Joshua 5:13-15 13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Did that Angel (appearance of Spirit) do anything else that might indicate that he was God himself? Compare these two passages:

Exo 3:4-6 KJV
(4) And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
(5) And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
(6) Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jos 5:14-15 KJV
(14) And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
(15) And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

When the angel told Joshua to remove his shoes, he was identifying himself as the same that God that spoke from the burning bush. Had he not been he would have denied the worship, rather than confirming Joshua's conclusion by declaring that his presence defined the ground as holy as he had with Moses.

 

[keypurr]

So you admit at least that the KJV does declare Jesus as God? Why not address any of the other evidences which were not translation specific?

All Greek to English translations seem to give choices as to what they are saying. I do not see Christ as the most high God in them. I was brought up using the KJV but now I question what's in it in many places. All translation have been altered by men using their thoughts on what was written.

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[achduke]

Did that Angel (appearance of Spirit) do anything else that might indicate that he was God himself? Compare these two passages:

Exo 3:4-6 KJV
(4) And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
(5) And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
(6) Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jos 5:14-15 KJV
(14) And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
(15) And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

When the angel told Joshua to remove his shoes, he was identifying himself as the same that God that spoke from the burning bush. Had he not been he would have denied the worship, rather than confirming Joshua's conclusion by declaring that his presence defined the ground as holy as he had with Moses.

The Angel did make the people he was conversing with take off their shoes. I believe it was most probably the same Angel as the burning bush and also walking with Israel out of Egypt and afterward. Still Jesus said no man has seen God and the people of Israel including Joshua did see this Angel. Jesus on the other hand did not make anyone take off their shoes like the Angel did.

 

[Rosenritter]

The Angel did make the people he was conversing with take off their shoes. I believe it was most probably the same Angel as the burning bush and also walking with Israel out of Egypt and afterward. Still Jesus said no man has seen God and the people of Israel including Joshua did see this Angel. Jesus on the other hand did not make anyone take off their shoes like the Angel did.

It is God's prerogative as to whether he asks people to remove their shoes. He isn't required to do so, he chose to do so in the case of Moses and again in the case of Joshua. But since we are talking of the Angel at the burning bush, it does identify that Angel as the LORD God in both the text and the actual words spoken.

 

[Rosenritter]

All Greek to English translations seem to give choices as to what they are saying. I do not see Christ as the most high God in them. I was brought up using the KJV but now I question what's in it in many places. All translation have been altered by men using their thoughts on what was written.

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Honestly, that's a tired old mantra that is used to justify attempting to make the text say anything that occurs to one's own philosophy. Don't be so quick to ride that bus.

 

[achduke]

It is God's prerogative as to whether he asks people to remove their shoes. He isn't required to do so, he chose to do so in the case of Moses and again in the case of Joshua. But since we are talking of the Angel at the burning bush, it does identify that Angel as the LORD God in both the text and the actual words spoken.

It does identify the Angel as the Lord but is the Angel God or is God speaking through the Angel? Also Jesus mentions something similar to God Speaking through him.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

 

[jamie]

Please define the Son of Man as you see him.
Consider that NO MAN has seen God.

Daniel saw a vision of the Son of Man.

Daniel 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions and behold, One like the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days and they brought Him near before Him."

It was a vision because the Son of Man had not yet been born.

 

[keypurr]

Did that Angel (appearance of Spirit) do anything else that might indicate that he was God himself? Compare these two passages:

Exo 3:4-6 KJV
(4) And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
(5) And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
(6) Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jos 5:14-15 KJV
(14) And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
(15) And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

When the angel told Joshua to remove his shoes, he was identifying himself as the same that God that spoke from the burning bush. Had he not been he would have denied the worship, rather than confirming Joshua's conclusion by declaring that his presence defined the ground as holy as he had with Moses.

When an agent of God speaks it is considered as God himself is speaking. At one time there was a thread about God and the agents he used to convey his word.

When the Christ told us that no man has seen God it opened up a huge can of worms. Now we need to rethink all the verses that say someone saw God.

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[keypurr]

Honestly, that's a tired old mantra that is used to justify attempting to make the text say anything that occurs to one's own philosophy. Don't be so quick to ride that bus.

I drive the bus. I question everything.

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[keypurr]

Daniel saw a vision of the Son of Man.

Daniel 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions and behold, One like the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days and they brought Him near before Him."

It was a vision because the Son of Man had not yet been born.

Amen, note that the Son of Man came to the Ancient of Days.
Two, the Son and his God. He now sits on the right of his God. No one is as great as the Father. Only the Father is greater than the son, the express image.

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[Rosenritter]

When an agent of God speaks it is considered as God himself is speaking. At one time there was a thread about God and the agents he used to convey his word.

When the Christ told us that no man has seen God it opened up a huge can of worms. Now we need to rethink all the verses that say someone saw God.

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Or you could consider that this dilemma has already been addressed in Moses and such "rethinking" that you suggest is unnecessary.

Exo 33:9-11 KJV
(9) And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.
(10) And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.
(11) And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Exo 33:17-23 KJV
(17) And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
(18) And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
(19) And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
(20) And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
(21) And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
(22) And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
(23) And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Num 12:6-8 KJV
(6) And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
(7) My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
(8) With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Deal with the Old Testament before you start trying to make passages say something new. Apparently you can see God and live, you can see God face to face, God has appeared face to face to some of his saints on occasion, man has seen God when he appeared in person. Any alleged conflict is resolved by acknowledging that single words can have multiple ranges of meanings.

Moses could talk to the Lord face to face but yet was told that he could not see his face and live. What does that latter part mean? Read Moses, in that case "his face" means "his glory." Mortal man cannot see God in his full glory and live. God muted his glory and Moses beheld him, God spoke to Moses face to face as he would a friend. Man has seen God, you are misunderstanding Christ's meaning. Jesus isn't going to contradict the Old Testament, He WROTE the Old Testament.

 

[keypurr]

Or you could consider that this dilemma has already been addressed in Moses and such "rethinking" that you suggest is unnecessary.

Exo 33:9-11 KJV
(9) And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.
(10) And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.
(11) And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Exo 33:17-23 KJV
(17) And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
(18) And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
(19) And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
(20) And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
(21) And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
(22) And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
(23) And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Num 12:6-8 KJV
(6) And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
(7) My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
(8) With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Deal with the Old Testament before you start trying to make passages say something new. Apparently you can see God and live, you can see God face to face, God has appeared face to face to some of his saints on occasion, man has seen God when he appeared in person. Any alleged conflict is resolved by acknowledging that single words can have multiple ranges of meanings.

Moses could talk to the Lord face to face but yet was told that he could not see his face and live. What does that latter part mean? Read Moses, in that case "his face" means "his glory." Mortal man cannot see God in his full glory and live. God muted his glory and Moses beheld him, God spoke to Moses face to face as he would a friend. Man has seen God, you are misunderstanding Christ's meaning. Jesus isn't going to contradict the Old Testament, He WROTE the Old Testament.

How does it word it in the Hebrew?

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[Rosenritter]

I drive the bus. I question everything.

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No you're not. You've bought into existing Unitarian arguments and you aren't questioning them in turn. To this goal you've even taken it upon yourself to decide that you have superior knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures than skilled translators by whom God blessed their work and spread it throughout the globe. When your theories contradict plain scripture you have ignored the pointed questions.

You are not questioning everything. You are biased, and what you are proclaiming is not drawn out of scripture but rather forced upon it. If you truly believe that you have special revelation hereto before unknown to us then present works and miracles that we may believe. If you are lacking these than perhaps you are not that prophet.

 

[jamie]

Amen, note that the Son of Man came to the Ancient of Days.

You said, "Consider that NO MAN has seen God." Does that mean you don't believe Jesus was human?

 

[Lon]

Your problem is you base your faith on one verse, John 20:28. * There are many verses that show that Christ taught that only his Father is God. Your stuck in the muck of tradition Lon. Can you really see what many others who dispute you see? If there is one God and Christ has a God why do you not question the Trinity that men formed in the fourth century?

Yochanan 20:28
And Toma answered and said to him " My Master and my Elohim!"

How many meanings does the word Elohim have?

Well, please don't jump the gun. All I am asking is what exactly the text says. I will want to spend a good number of posts on this:

John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, "You are the Lord of me and God of me."

Just tell me first, what it means. What is it saying before you and I get further than that?

Not Elohim but "Theos." It always means God. With the correction, agree?

 

[Rosenritter]

Not Elohim but "Theos." It always means God. With the correction, agree?

καὶ ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Θωμᾶς, καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου.

It's the conclusion of John's gospel, so to speak. If you don't understand this from it you wasted your time.