Lon
Well-known member
Is this to me, or Keypurr? I think it needs a bit more explanation. I'm supposing you are saying it is clear that Jesus is God.
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
Is this to me, or Keypurr? I think it needs a bit more explanation. I'm supposing you are saying it is clear that Jesus is God.
Rosenritter
New member
Rosenritter
New member
Exodus 33 and Numbers 12. It says Moses saw God, that he talked face to face, and then when he asks to see His Glory he is told that Moses cannot see his face. The point being that Moses did see God, but there is more than one way of "seeing" someone. Obviously Exodus does not contradict Exodus and it uses that phrasing back to back.
Rosenritter
New member
Keypurr, Paul acknowledged Jesus as God. See the passages above.
Lon
Well-known member
Theophanies are ways God shows Himself to physical man, so God came often in a form people could see and hear. Yet, it is true also that no man has seen God with his/her physical eyes for God is immaterial, a/the Spirit. Good questions. I didn't want you to get lost on this page so perhaps Rosen will pick up or this will be enough.
Agree, the Father is not the Son. I'm not a tritheist. Rather, somehow God is conveying distinction yet has told us He is only one God where none else are after Him or before. The only thing a Trinitarian want's to do at that point, is believe both sets of truth and leave it there. Any 'figuring it out' would be speculation unless the scripture spells it out plainly. Imho, then, the triune view sees only one God. Father Spirit and Son are Him. How? :idunno: I'm just trying not to second guess scripture. I can give 'speculation' where scripture is silent but we mostly just want people to know what scripture says and embrace scripture truths as-is similar to what Rosen said:
I'll let Rosen pick up from here as needed, again just didn't want to see you get lost in the shuffle because I think they are good inquiry questions. -Lon
achduke
Active member
Thanks Lon,
I am a believer in the living temple. The Spirit fills the temple. If we do not ask God to enter into the temple then the adversary will take up the vacancy.
As for Jesus we know he was a man. That was made clear in the bible. We also know he had the Spirit of God in him. Our bodies are the temple for the Spirit of God and Jesus also said his body was a temple.
I think Zechariah 3-4, Proverbs 8, Revelations and so much more leave a lot of unanswered questions by the believers in the trinity. There is so much we do not understand and I do not want to place labels on God.
Zechariah 3:1-10 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? 3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 4And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. 5And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by. 6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying, 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by. 8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH. 9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rosenritter
New member
Some questions I came up with while attempting to find "explanations" for how some of this could work. Here's some of my thought processes:
Question; Is God powerful enough to exist in more than one place at a time?
Answer: I can exist in four states of the Union at once if I stand on the right place. God is bigger than I am.
Question: Can God exist in heaven above and walk on the earth below at the same time?
Answer: I can place my hand inside a hamster cage with the hamsters while existing outside the cage (their world) at the same time. God is more grand compared to the earth than I am to the hamster cage.
Rhetorical: Is God powerful enough to know all things knowable? We will assume yes.
Question: Is God powerful enough to be able to exclude what could be known to the extent that he could play a fair game of cards, for example?
Answer: I would assume yes. All powerful can overrule all-knowing.
Question: Can God operate "fairly" in an instance where he needs to act as if excluding information known while at the same time accessing that information in another manner?
Answer: I would assume yes.
Question: Could God then operate with limited knowledge and power as Jesus while acting with full power and knowledge in heaven above?
Answer: I would assume yes.
Question: What determines whether God is God? If God restricts his power or knowledge in some fashion for a purpose, is he no longer God?
Answer: I consider the heart and character of God to be his true definition of himself.
Answer: In another sense, "God" is also a title that belongs to a person, rather than the person himself. In that aspect, if God operates outside the role of "God" he is not "God" in that sense, yet being the same person.
Question: Would it be out of character for Jesus to act out a role and allow us to operate under bad assumptions should we make them?
Answer: It has happened from time to time. Why did he appear in a different form on the road to Emmaus? See Luke 24:32
Answer: "Lamb of God" and "King of Kings" are different roles as well. One is the sacrifice for our sins and the other our returning triumphant king.
Answer: Was John going to live until the return of Christ? See John 21:23.
My point is that we should determine what scripture says first and then adjust our viewing angles to accommodate the hard sayings, rather than the other way around. There is enough evidence to show that Jesus was God, the One God, as the bible both says and intimates this. Instances where Jesus acted as if he were a normal man are explainable by circumstances. When you combine the two, "being God" takes precedence because otherwise it would be blasphemy.
Rosenritter
New member
Note that this Joshua is not Jesus the BRANCH, but rather playing a part in a prophecy that prophesies Jesus. I admit the names are similar which is perhaps why he was chosen for this.
But as for whether Jesus was a man, consider also that there are numerous other examples in the Bible where angels and the LORD himself is described as a man. Three men appeared before Abraham and he talked unto the LORD. Of those three two men went down to Sodom and when they arrive Genesis reveals that they are angels. One man remained and Abraham continues to talk with the LORD. In another place Jacob wrestled a man until dusk, and later the LORD talks to Jacob in a dream and says that he appeared unto him at that time. Point being that "man" is a form and does not necessarily exclude God or angel. If God chose to be born of flesh he would be a "man" during that time.
God is immortal, he cannot die.
Jesus was resurrected immortal.
1 Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
Rosenritter
New member
Jesus also took credit for raising himself.
Joh 2:19-22 KJV
(19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
(20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
(21) But he spake of the temple of his body.
(22) When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
God can die as many times as he wants, he can also raise himself from the dead. It's part of the power of being God.
achduke
Active member
In Zechariah Joshua/Yehoshua and Jesus/Yehoshua share the same name origin in Hebrew.
Also Zechariah 3:8 NIV points out that Joshua and his associates were symbolic of things to come or prophetic.
Zechariah 3:8 “ ‘Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.
Jesus made it clear his body was not spirit even after he had risen. Also in Hebrews it is clear he is not an angel nor has been one.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Hebrews 1:1-8 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
As for the Lord being a man as represented through out history I am more of the belief of the Angels and Men being an agent to the Lord and the Lord speaking through them.
Angels and messengers are considered mediums. Does God use them to speak as himself?
me·di·um
ˈmēdēəm/Submit
noun
plural noun: mediums
1.
an agency or means of doing something.
"using the latest technology as a medium for job creation"
synonyms: means, method, way, form, agency, avenue, channel, vehicle, organ, instrument, mechanism
"using technology as a medium for job creation"
2.
the intervening substance through which impressions are conveyed to the senses or a force acts on objects at a distance.
"radio communication needs no physical medium between the two stations"
Rosenritter
New member
I know that Jesus is the Greek form of Joshua. And granted that Angel can also mean messenger or representative. With that in mind, have you ever considered why Moses specifically changed Oshea the son of Nun to Joshua?
Exo 23:20-23 KJV
(20) Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
(21) Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
(22) But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
(23) For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
The successor for Moses was Joshua that led Israel into Canaan. Justin Martyr noted that Joshua the son of Nun must have had his name changed for a reason. When his name was changed, then his name does literally bear the name of God... "JOSHUA" (in the Hebrew) is "JESUS" (in the Greek)
You asked if God uses angels to speak as himself? Not that I am aware of. There are created angels that speak for God, but not angels that claim to BE God and accept worship as if they were God. The angels that I am familiar with make that distinction clear if confusion presents itself.
Rev 19:10 KJV
(10) And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Sometimes the angel of the LORD turns out to be the LORD. Just because it says "angel" you cannot necessarily determine whether the actual person is God, a created angel, or even a human in the role of messenger.
achduke
Active member
It is interesting that Moses called Joshua by a different name. I never noticed that verse.
Jesus did indeed raise up his new body after the Father imparted life to him.
Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."
Can God also bleed? Is his life in his blood?
Colossians 1:14 "In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins."
Through his blood, redemption. Through his life, salvation.
Rosenritter
New member
When in one passage Jesus says that he will raise himself up, and the next passage it says that the Spirit raised Jesus up, that forms an equivalence unless one wants to argue contradiction. What your response seemed to do was to denigrate the passage from John, that Jesus did not actually "raise" himself, but that someone else raised him and he merely stood up.
Do you mean to disregard the passage in John as having relevance? Or can you accept that both scriptures agree if Jesus is also that Spirit?
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
No, he didn't take credit for it. :think:
Deuteronomy 18:18
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
keypurr
Well-known member
Theos is the Greek as translated from the early Aramaic. So I question if Theos is the correct word. I have no doubts that Christ is a god, but I can not elevate him to the level of his Father.
Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
Rosenritter
New member
Blood is symbolic Jamie. If God enters into our world through the form of a man with blood, then the form he has taken can bleed. If that form bleeds and loses blood, then if God has truly entered our world through that form he would lose consciousness in that form.
Question for you Jamie. You have a head, two arms, two legs, hands, and feet. I assume. It's probably a fair assumption. If you reached out and slapped me, I would be able to say that "Jamie slapped me" ... correct? But would it be a fair argument if you said "I didn't slap you, my hand slapped you?" I am assuming you wouldn't make such a defense.
In this experiment, if I took out a sword and stabbed your hand, I attacked you. That is, I attacked Jamie. One wouldn't say that I attacked your hand and not Jamie. If I cut off your hand with that same sword and it withered and died, we would say that your hand died. We wouldn't say that Jamie died. If Jamie (yourself) had a quality of immortality that you could not die, and I chopped off your hand which withered and died you would still be immortal, is that not correct?
Now if you picked up your dead hand three days later and put it to your arm and it quickened, are you going to say that the hand was never you because it died while Jamie was immortal? That hand was just as much you and part of you before.
When you slapped me earlier, was your hand acting against the will of Jamie, or did it do the will of Jamie and not having its own separate will?
It seems to me that you are getting stuck on little details because your viewpoint framework lacks appropriate analogy. Thus you deny God the power to do that which only He is able to do. The promise of a perfect sacrifice required a sinless Messiah. You don't bank your entire reputation and man's humanity on a "maybe this one person I've predicted will be born will be sinless and just like me" ... you take control and make the prophecy happen by doing it yourself.
You seem to be disallowing God the power to enter his own world as a man while maintaining his existence above our universe simultaneously. There's tons of passages that say this is what he did. Clear passages. "God was manifest in the flesh" and so forth. Why would it say this in so many different ways if it were not so?
Do you think that it would mean that God would love you any less if he literally went through the grief and being rejected by his creation, mocked, and tasting death to fulfill the symbolic act that illustrates forgiveness, for the purpose of grabbing your attention?
Rosenritter
New member
Did his real words pass away? Or is this passage a forgery?
Luk 21:33 KJV
(33) Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.