ECT The Same Yesterday, and Today, and For Ever
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Nope, the Bible does not say God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
It is your doctrine, not scriptural.
God is only one. You made three Gods.
Lon
Well-known member
On this, there is a careful wade (for me) between creeds. Some aren't interested in that, and so will line-up how they view scripture. That makes sense, but for me, I'm thinking God has given me guidelines (the creeds). We certainly may and can reject any unbiblical creed but a good many men, most godly I'd reckon, gave what they felt was Christ-honoring and Scripture-honoring. For me again, I don't over emphasize them but I do want to do justice to their humongous effort and honor that labor, even if I don't wind up agreeing with them. "Respect" would be the idea, if I have a contention. I 'want' to be orthodox if and wherever I can.
So, let me give my agreements, disagreements, and thoughts:
For me, it helped me embrace the creeds and they, in turn helped me in scripture reading.
Thanks for asking me to work through and explain my scriptural understanding here as well. I need to be able to cogently and scripturally articulate my biblical understanding and have it challenged where needed. 1 Peter 3:2,4,15
So, let me give my agreements, disagreements, and thoughts:
I was of a similar mind, at one time. It gets a bit redundant in thought for me, but I think I can agree with Matt Slick and the creeds on this. Here is how: Everything we are, is from God. Colossians 1:17 That means, I think, that there is nothing we are, that God doesn't already know about, put there, and comes from His being already. I 'think' there is about universal agreement on this so far? Colossians 1:16-20 refresher if need be. Next, then, I 'can' agree with Matt Slick and the creeds that it wouldn't be a 'change' but, as I said previously, a reduction. I'd think Philippians 2:5-11 helps explain this difference to us. I think of it this way: The Lord Jesus Christ was subject to the Father as such, 'humbling' Himself and becoming a servant was nothing new. Any change, and you or I might assert a difference BUT can anything be 'new' to God if everything, everything, everything, everything comes from Him (nothing exists that exists), and is sustained by Him?
For me, it helped me embrace the creeds and they, in turn helped me in scripture reading.
For me, anybody disagreeing OR agreeing, depends on what they are conceiving at the moment and that depending on that, they might both be right, but perhaps not seeing the bigger picture. I'm not sure you'd want to say Jesus was a 'man' with those limitations, but certainly all that man is, comes from the being of God, thus is part of Him, as you say. There are scriptures that explain the separation between God and man however: Numbers 23:19 1 Samuel 15:29. The separation might be understood, scripturally, as the difference between a fallen man, especially when most of these scripture comparisons bring up those fallen traits.
If you'll entertain this, your question, to me, seems caught in 'creation.' Psalm 33:9 Hebrews 11:3 Whatever is made is an extension of who He already is. The two-natures, to me, is best understood in who He is before incarnation: God AND subject to the Father. We tend to think of dichotomies when conceiving of scriptures and tend to separate it all into compartments. For me, 'two natures' is one of those because the Lord Jesus Christ is both God AND subject to the Father before incarnation, and doesn't seem to be different than that during and after incarnation either. The only thing that is harder to explain, for me, is His temptations. My thinking is, that while in the flesh with those restrictions, that the reduction created those needs in the flesh that all men have, thus is able to empathize. Hebrews 4:15
Thanks for asking me to work through and explain my scriptural understanding here as well. I need to be able to cogently and scripturally articulate my biblical understanding and have it challenged where needed. 1 Peter 3:2,4,15
Yes it does.
Nope.
Yes, it is.
Something no trinitarian disagrees with.
Nope.
| THREE QUESTIONS TO DETERMINE IF THE TRINITY IS BIBLICALLY TRUE OR FALSE. If any one of these questions can be answered 'no,' then the Trinity can be rejected as an unbiblical belief. But if all three can be answered 'yes,' then the concept of the Trinity can be accepted as true. 1. Does the Bible mention three distinct persons? 2. Does the Bible refer to each of these persons as God? 3. Does the Bible teach there is only one God? The answers: 1. Are three distinct persons mentioned? YES. A. The Father (1 John 3:1) B. The Son (1 John 1:3) C. The Holy Spirit (John 14:6; 14:26; 15:26; 16:13-14; Romans 15:30; Ephesians 4:30) 2. Are each of these persons referred to as God? YES. A. God the Father (1Thessalonians 1:1) B. God the Son (John 1:1; 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9) C. God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4) 3. Is there only one God? YES. (see Deuteronomy 4:35-39; Psalm 86:10; Isaiah 45:5; 45:22) |
If you can refute everything in the box above, then you can say that the trinity is not Biblical.
If not, then it is, and it should be considered as truth.
God's Truth
New member
Tell me something, why do you ask if I "deny" it when I have been saying it?
That is bizarre of you to think for a second I would deny what proves what I say.
God's Truth
New member
Meshak, I am so glad for your input sometimes, it can be such great input. I just wish that you would be able to change your mind about some off beliefs that you have.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I'm sorry, Jerry, but for you to assume he "would have said" such and such is a bit presumptuous, considering so many other things that Jesus said. As I remember it, He confused others with His choice of word, even His own disciples.
And, I have no problem believing the Scripture, it's your interpretation of them that I'm finding fault with.
God's Truth
New member
Are confusing me with someone else?
You are either confusing me with someone else, or you are deliberately being contentious and deceitful; neither qualities of a Christians indwelt with the Spirit.
God's Truth
New member
She has more sense sometimes than you.
God's Truth
New member
They don't see it but you do.
The trinitarians are fighting what I say so hard, they don't want to admit their beliefs are wrong; and, Jerry wants to pretend I am not saying what I am because he now has to face the fact that he is not trinitarian.
It is simple to see the difference between the Father, Son and the Spirit but you don'r see it.
God's Truth
New member
God the Father is the ONE AND ONLY GOD. He came as a Man.
glorydaz
Well-known member
The Son of God is the exact same essence as God. His nature is fully divine. Where do you see subjection prior to the incarnation?
The Jews understood what that means.
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
God's Truth
New member
Why don't you tell us what the 'essence' is . hahaha
Lon
Well-known member
:up: Philippians 2:6
Again, as I think on these, it seems this kind of love is complete with a willingness toward subordination. I'm very correctable and challengeable regarding these matters and thank you for your scriptures and post (sorry, still congenial rather than desiring to posture where I may be corrected and am COMPLETELY willing to follow scriptures concerning His nature). A few years ago, I was kenotic as well. It took a godly challenge to move me from heresy I didn't even know I possessed :noway: Thank you. -Lon
Lon
Well-known member
Thank you for these links
From the first:
Addresses my need for clarity as well as Jerry's and Glory's posts.
I appreciate this from the second link as well:
For me, such is always that careful walk between creeds as I mentioned earlier. I 'think' my observations so far in thread are true (wholly open to correction and/or concerns for being clear) and it is this difficulty in symmetry that I'm always trying to be careful of when describing Him.
This part of the conversation had been done in the linked thread, if anybody want's to go back for a recap.
In Him -Lon
Scripture, Book, chapter and verse
God's Truth
New member
I give you scriptures all the time.
You don't know these scriptures about there is only one God and he is the Father, and, the Word was God and became flesh?
Right Divider
Body part
John 17:5 (KJV)
(17:5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(17:5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
How could Jesus say that He had glory WITH His Father BEFORE the WORLD WAS if He was "the Father with a body"?
Note that BEFORE THE WORLD WAS is LONG BEFORE Jesus had a body.
God's Truth
New member
I have explained that in detail. Why don't you study harder?
Jesus had his resurrected Spiritual Body First then came to earth as a man, then ascended to the Father with the same Spiritual Body he had before the world began.