ECT The Same Yesterday, and Today, and For Ever

[glorydaz]

Our nature, yes. But Paul describes the physical body in the sense of being clothed upon. Or the outward man as contrasted with the inward man.



I wish that you would tell me how you think that it is possible that the Lord Jesus had only one nature when He came to the earth and then took on another nature when He was born of Mary but did not have a change in His very nature.

You're the one who insists that verse is speaking of His nature. The verse has a context. That from the beginning, the sacrifices were pointing to the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ...thus He has always been the Way, the Truth and the Life. The promises to the fathers are all fulfilled in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for sin. God never changes...even when everything is changing around us, and Jesus Christ is God....never stopped being God, and always will be God making intercession for mankind.

Why you insist on making this be about His nature is too much of a stretch for me to understand.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God never changes...

But you say that the Lord Jesus, who is God, changes.

According to you when the Lord Jesus was born of Mary He took on a whole new nature and instead of just being fully God now He was now fully God AND fully Man BUT He remained the same yesterday, today and forever.

That makes no sense. And please consider that the Lord Himself used the words "Son of Man" as coming down from heaven so that can only mean that He was a Man before He was born of Mary:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven" (Jn.3:13).​

It is as "Man" that the Lord Jesus is now in heaven and it was as "Man" that He came down from heaven. His use of the words "son of Man" are not used willy-nilly in the Scriptures but instead they are very significant. Again:

"What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where he was before?" (Jn.6:62).​

The Lord Jesus used the term "Son of Man" because He wants us to understand something about Him.

Since you believe that the Lord Jesus was fully Man and fully God when He walked the earth and likewise in heaven why is it so hard for you to believe that He was fully God and Fully Man before He came to the earth?

You must have a reason, don't you?

 

[Lon]

What do you think would be the origin of the Lord Jesus' human soul? Did He create His own soul?

Philippians 2 'emptied' thus, all BUT humanity? Its a good question and difficult (at least for me and I 'think' that's saying something).
Incarnation (CARM) Incarnation Athanasian Creed

Though not a 'change' but a reduction, by my understanding as well as the complication of being tempted as we.

All together, it isn't easy to explain (for me).

 

[glorydaz]

But you say that the Lord Jesus, who is God, changes.

According to you when the Lord Jesus was born of Mary He took on a whole new nature and instead of just being fully God now He was now fully God AND fully Man BUT He remained the same yesterday, today and forever.

You're reading nature into the verse.

That makes no sense. And please consider that the Lord Himself used the words "Son of Man" as coming down from heaven so that can only mean that He was a Man before He was born of Mary:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven" (Jn.3:13).​

It is as "Man" that the Lord Jesus is now in heaven and it was as "Man" that He came down from heaven.

You're reading into that verse, too. He's preparing them for the fact that He will be ascending into heaven, which no other man has done before Him. He came down from heaven (God became flesh) to dwell among us. He will ascend up to where He was before, but now taking His resurrected flesh with Him.

His use of the words "son of Man" are not used willy-nilly in the Scriptures but instead they are very significant. Again:

"What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where he was before?" (Jn.6:62).​

The Lord Jesus used the term "Son of Man" because He wants us to understand something about Him.

Yes, that He was the fulfilment of the prophecy Daniel 7:13-14

Since you believe that the Lord Jesus was fully Man and fully God when He walked the earth and likewise in heaven why is it so hard for you to believe that He was fully God and Fully Man before He came to the earth?

You must have a reason, don't you?

First, I've never seen any evidence of that being the case.
Second, John 1:1 is very explicit that the Word was God.

 

[glorydaz]

What do you think would be the origin of the Lord Jesus' human soul? Did He create His own soul?

He wasn't created at all. No part of Him.

He was born like the rest of us, but was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You're reading into that verse, too. He's preparing them for the fact that He will be ascending into heaven, which no other man has done before Him.

You are denying what the Lord Jesus said because He said in no uncertain terms that it was as the "Son of Man" when He came down from heaven:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven" (Jn.3:13).​

If you are right then He would have said that He came down from heaven as the Son of God and He is now in heaven as the Son of Man. And in the following verse He says that before He was born of Mary that He was in heaven as the Son of Man.

"What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where he was before?" (Jn.6:62).​

If your idea is correct He would have said the following:

"What and if ye shall see the Son of God ascend up where he was before?" (Jn.6:62).​

If you really want to grow in knowledge of the Lord Jesus then you must learn to believe the Scriptures as they are written.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Philippians 2 'emptied' thus, all BUT humanity? Its a good question and difficult (at least for me and I 'think' that's saying something).
Incarnation (CARM) Incarnation Athanasian Creed

Though not a 'change' but a reduction, by my understanding as well as the complication of being tempted as we.

All together, it isn't easy to explain (for me).

Thanks Lon!

In the article from CARM we read the following:

"Furthermore, the doctrine of the incarnation denies any change in the divine word at all. It simply states that the Word became flesh (not meaning it changed its nature). The Word resides in the person of Christ along with the human nature, so that Jesus has two distinct natures.

Therefore, we can conclude that the Godhead participates in humanity through the incarnation of Christ, but the Godhead is not changed in anyway."​

Here we read that when the Lord Jesus became flesh that didn't change His nature.

But if the Lord Jesus was just God before He was born of Mary and then became Man then it is obvious that His nature did change.

I say that the Lord Jesus was both Man and God before He was born of Mary and therefore, as it says on CARM, His nature did not change.

The LORD says that He makes human souls (Isa.47:16) so are we to believe that the Lord Jesus, who makes everything, made His own human soul?

 

[God's Truth]

Which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Has nothing to do with the topic? What are you trying to say then, God is man and women?

God made man in His image.

He made them male and females.

We get our image from God. We get our human image from God.

The Father is a male, and the first human was a male, then woman was made as a companion and helper for the male.

 

[God's Truth]

Our nature, yes. But Paul describes the physical body in the sense of being clothed upon. Or the outward man as contrasted with the inward man.



I wish that you would tell me how you think that it is possible that the Lord Jesus had only one nature when He came to the earth and then took on another nature when He was born of Mary but did not have a change in His very nature.

Glorydazed speaks as one who thinks that humans had something over on God, becoming what we are before He ever did. Jesus is the First and the Last. Jesus is God who came to experience what it is like to be a human soul with flesh that hungers, ages, grows, and dies.

Jesus is the SOUL of the one and only God, the Father.

The Father lives in unapproachable light, then He made Himself a BODY...that body was in the form of the resurrected man Jesus, who was to come.

God the Father made the plan for salvation to be through Jesus' body, but He also made the whole creation through that body.

Jesus is the First and the Last. Jesus is the resurrected body First in heaven, and it was what he also received Last, when he ascended to heaven, and it is the body we shall all have at the resurrection.

We shall receive our flesh body, but it will not be as a normal flesh body, it will be flesh that does not decay.

 

[God's Truth]

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

1 Corinthians 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

1 Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Philippians 3:21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Jesus is before all and through, by and for whom everything made was made.

Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

 

[God's Truth]

What do you think would be the origin of the Lord Jesus' human soul? Did He create His own soul?

There is only one God, and He is the Father.

He lives in unapproachable light, and made Himself a soul---a Spirit with a body.

That soul was Jesus Christ in his resurrected form.

So now we see TWO: One God the Father who lives in unapproachable light, Two, God the Father with a body (which is the Spiritual Body of the Man Christ); and Three...which we haven't discussed in this thread yet...the Holy Spirit...the Holy Spirit who IS God the Father and Jesus Christ but is without a body and goes forth without limit.

 

[God's Truth]

You're the one who insists that verse is speaking of His nature. The verse has a context. That from the beginning, the sacrifices were pointing to the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ...thus He has always been the Way, the Truth and the Life. The promises to the fathers are all fulfilled in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for sin. God never changes...even when everything is changing around us, and Jesus Christ is God....never stopped being God, and always will be God making intercession for mankind.

Why you insist on making this be about His nature is too much of a stretch for me to understand.

Jesus is God the Father, with a body. He is the soul of God the Father. He is the First, and the Last, the Beginning, and the End, the Alpha and the Omega.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus' titles are the same names as God Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Savior, Redeemer, Deliverer, the Holy One; the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, King of kings, Lord of lords, and God.

 

[God's Truth]

This scripture says GOD is the ONLY RULER, the King of kings, and the Lord of lords.

1 Timothy 6:15
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

This scripture says that the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is the Lord of lords and the kings of kings.


Revelation 17:14
They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is only one God, and He is the Father.

Do you deny that the Lord Jesus is the "Father" in this verse?:

"But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand" (Isa.64:8).

Here the LORD is called the Father and all people are created by Him. Since the Lord Jesus created all things then it is certain that He is the Father in that sense. And the following verse confirms the fact:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

He lives in unapproachable light, and made Himself a soul---a Spirit with a body.

That soul was Jesus Christ in his resurrected form.

So the Lord Jesus was not telling the truth when He said that He was before all things?

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).​

 

[meshak]

Do you deny that the Lord Jesus is the "Father" in this verse?:



Here the LORD is called the Father and all people are created by Him. Since the Lord Jesus created all things then it is certain that He is the Father in that sense. And the following verse confirms the fact:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

So the Lord Jesus was not telling the truth when He said that He was before all things?

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).​

According to your belief, Jesus is God and the Bible says there is only God.

If you believe Jesus is God, what GT is claiming make perfect sense.

But I don't believe Jesus is God.

 

[Right Divider]

According to your belief, Jesus is God and the Bible says there is only God.

If you believe Jesus is God, what GT is claiming make perfect sense.

But I don't believe Jesus is God.

That is why you are lost.

Good day and blessings.

 

[meshak]

That is why you are lost.

Good day and blessings.

Why do you fight against GT's claim?

she says Jesus is God and there is only one God.

Then Jesus is the Father, according to your "Jesus is God" doctrine.

 

[meshak]

delete

 

[Right Divider]

Why do you fight against GT's claim?

she says Jesus is God and there is only one God.

Then Jesus is the Father, according to your "Jesus is God" doctrine.

FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT.... just like the Bible says.

ONE GOD in THREE PERSONS.... just like the Bible says.

P.S. Why did you delete "blessings" and replace it with this?