ECT The Same Yesterday, and Today, and For Ever
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
The kid is choking a bit.
Adam, "pre-fall"-flesh and bones:
Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
The Lord Jesus Christ, "post resurrection"-flesh and bones.
Luke 24:39 KJV Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
The Lord Jesus Christ, "post resurrection," and NOW-flesh and bones.
Ephesians 5:30 KJV For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
And thus...
Corinthians 15:50 KJV Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
It says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, not "flesh and bone."
Too much meat, kid?
Luke 24:39 KJV Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
The Lord Jesus Christ, "post resurrection," and NOW-flesh and bones.
Ephesians 5:30 KJV For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Ephesians 5:30 KJV, kid-He is described as being flesh and bones-NOW.
Why should we believe you, instead of Paul?
You taught us that-we learned that from you.
Fold, kid-you have "deuce-seven unsuited" in "Texas Hold(Fold)'Em."
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The same flesh and bone body which was made with hands?:
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:2).
"The two oldest existing manuscripts, and Coptic or Memphitic version, omit "of His flesh and of His bones"; the words may have crept into the text through the Margin from Ge 2:23, Septuagint." (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary).
I can see that you have it all figured out.
A spiritual body is a natural body minus the blood.
It is a house made with hands minus the blood.
How clever!
Read it, kid:
Ephesians 5:30 KJV For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
=NOW
That is slick, kid=I have my doctrine, and if a particular passage in ("fill in the blank) disagrees with my doctrine, I will find another bible/source that verifies/agrees with my doctrine. Thus, your doctrine determines what the bible should say. You can "prove" anything, kid.
I am a meat eater, kid.
Drink your milk, but slowly.
Slower:
Adam, "pre-fall"-flesh and bones:
Genesis 2:23 KJV And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
The Lord Jesus Christ, "post resurrection"-flesh and bones.
Luke 24:39 KJV Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
The Lord Jesus Christ, "post resurrection," and NOW-flesh and bones.
Ephesians 5:30 KJV For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
And thus...
Corinthians 15:50 KJV Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
It says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, not "flesh and bone."
Too much meat, kid?
No scripture says that the Saviour lost His glorified, "flesh and bones," yes, spiritual body, on the way up to the third heaven.
Phillip saw Him in the third heaven, and Job will see him at the second time, on earth, in that same resurrected, glorified "flesh and bone" spiritual body.
He is "able to be seen," in that body, but is "invisible" now, in the sense that mankind cannot see Him now, in the third heaven.
The Lord Jesus Christ in His glorified, "flesh and bones" spiritual body, post resurrection:
Luke 24:39 KJV Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
The Lord Jesus Christ, "post resurrection," and NOW-flesh and bones-no change:
Ephesians 5:30 KJV For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Ephesians 5:30 KJV, kid-He is described as being flesh and bones-NOW.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So the "flesh" belonging to the body made with hands is not corruptible? And what happens to the flesh once the blood is no longer in the natural body?
So you are firmly convinced that the spiritual body of the Lord Jesus is a natural body minus the blood. Do you really think that the body in which the Lord Jesus was seen ascending into heaven was a glorious body?
It sure doesn't resemble the vision of the same glorified heavenly body of the Lord Jesus given to John:
"And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead" (Rev.1:13-17).
Do you see a change there? Or is that what the Lord looked like when He was seen by many after He was raised from the dead?
If the Apostle John was expecting the Lord Jesus to be in the same blood and bone body when He appears to the saints then it would make no sense for him to say the following:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).
If the saints were expecting that the Lord Jesus was going to appear in a flesh and bone body and they were going to be made like Him then they would know exactly what they will be like when He appears.
Fun, fun and more fun!
To recap:
You think that a spiritual body is a house made with hands.
You think that a spiritual body is a natural body minus the blood.
You think that the Lord Jesus' heavenly body of which John was given a vision is the same body seen by many people after His resurrection. "His eyes were as a flame of fire...and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."
Even though the saints were not expecting the Lord Jesus to return in a flesh and bone body you are absolutely sure that He will.
BRILLIANT!
No, kid, you are speaking for me, and employing false dichotomies, and humanism, i.e., I, kid Jerry, cannot understand how flesh and bones.............(fill in the blank), therefore the resurrected, spiritual body of the Lord Jesus Christ, and thus members of the boc, per Phillipians 3:21 KJV, are not flesh and bones. What I cannot understand, I will not believe. Atheists do the same in dismissing the concept of hell.
Slower: flesh and bones...not flesh and blood.
The opposite of spiritual is not physical/flesh.
And the context of 11 John 3 ff., kid is not the physical appearance in resurrection/glorified bodies," we shall be like him," but sinlessness.
This may be too much meat, for you, kid:
1 John 3:9 KJV
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3 KJV
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
This is a cry for "sinlessness, just like the Lord had-"But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."-that is the context-born again, the nation of Israel, both spiritually regenerated, and physically regenerated, in resurrected bodies, of flesh and bone, where they will walk in His ordinances, part of the blessings of the NC, not subject to the sin nature.
John "ties" "we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" not with the physical attributes of the Saviour, but with His "inner" attributes-no sin..."in him is no sin"-verse 5, and hence verses 6-9:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
It has NADA to do with how they will look "outside." The context of "we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" is the hope of "sinlessness," which will be realized in spiritually and physically regenerated bodies in the future-the nation Israel, on earth, in resurrected bodies, spiritually and physically regenerated, will not sin.....the blessings of the NC, made with the remnant of Israel.....not addressed to members of the boc....
Again, for the babes/sheep, to emphasize the importance of rightly dividing the word of truth, per 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV- Whom is being addressed:?
1 John 2 KJV
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
John 13:33 KJV
Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
The writer? John, to whom the Lord Jesus Christ gave charge of His mother, per John 19:25-28 KJV.
="little children"=a term of affection, employed by the Lord Jesus Christ, including "the little flock"-Luke 12:32 KJV,...
Mt. 12 KJV
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Thus, John "takes hold," "adopts" the Lord's spiritual family, the "born again" little children....
1 Peter 1 KJV
3 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 John 2:1 KJV
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
A parent first teaches his child to "sin not."
These are not lost people, sinners, for...
...we have an advocate with the Father,...
It does not say "High Priest"-it says "advocate."
Sinners need a Saviour, a High Priest, not an advocate. The Lord Jesus Christ is only an advocate for God the Father's children, whether it be the believing remnant, the little flock, of the nation Israel, or the boc.
That being said, the context of this address is to future "tribulation" saints, "the little flock," not to members of the body of Christ, during the "Great Trib," when they will be supernaturally empowered,much like the "for taste" at Pentecost...
Hebrews 6:5 KJV
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
...., "born again," under the blessings of the New Covenant, not to sin:
1 John 3 KJV
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Survey Ez. 36 KJV...
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Survey Jer. 31 KJV...
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
1 John 2
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
Compare-And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour,
__________
1 John 3:9 KJV
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him : and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
To whom is John speaking? The audience?
"his seed remaineth in him"
Is this "seed" the word of God? 1 Peter 1:23 KJV?
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever."
But 1 John 3:9 says "his seed,"i.e., referring to that person's own seed.
Details of the book matter...
Gen 17 KJV
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Details-pay attention to "first mention." This is the first mention in the book of the words "his seed," and 1 John 3:9 KJV, is the last mention. Details matter.
Some of the other verses with the words "his seed" are Jeremiah 3:9 KJV, Luke 1:55 KJV, Acts 7:6 KJV, Romans 4:13 KJV.
The normal usage of "his seed" in both the OT and NT, refer to a man's seed, as in, his sperm, or his offspring.
Arguing that "his seed" in 1 John 3:9 KJV refers to the word of God seems a "stretch"-it does not seem consistent with it's normal usage in the book.
1 John 3:9 KJV
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Any other men in the book,whose seed will remain in them?
Rev 14:3-5 KJV
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
The 144,000 during the "Great Trib"will have their seed remaining in them, for they are virgins.
Get it?
They are "without fault before the throne of God."
This would explain 1 John 3:9 KJV.
John's epistles-aimed at Jews, who would have entered the Great Trib period, during John's time, if the nation Israel had accepted the Lord Jesus as the Messiah, the Christ.
The 2,000+ year interim period that we are in now was not seen by John.He very well could have been preparing the Jews for the tribulation, thinking it would happen very soon.
As an aside...Survey:
John 1:47 KJV
Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
? I thought the Lord Jesus Christ was the only person, who was walking the earth, during the events of John 1, in whom there was no guile! No, He was speaking in His role, as the prophet, "seeing" the future believing remnant, represented by "Nate,"in the mil. k., experiencing both the physical and spiritual blessing of the NC-resurrected bodies, on earth, having the ability not to sin.
"Rightly divide" the word of truth-understand what is written to members of the boc, and what is written specifically for another audience.
Sorry, kid...Per 1 Corinthians 3 ff, you cannot handle meat, so 1 Cor. 2:2 KJV will only be discussed with you. Night, night.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The appearing of the Lord Jesus mentioned at 1 John 3:2 is the same one spoken by James in the following verse:
"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).
The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).
In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:
"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).
That is exactly the same appearance of which Paul speaks here:
"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).
The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent and soon to come to pass" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
And here John speaks of the same appearance and he refers to it as a "hope":
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 Jn.3:2-3).
That is referring to the same exact thing which Paul speaks of in the following verse:
"Awaiting our blessed hope, and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).
Same hope, same appearing, and the same imminent appearance. And since there can be only one imminent appearance and since only those in the Body are expecting that imminent appearance then it becomes obvious that those who received the Hebrew epistles in the first century were all baptized into the Body of Christ:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
If the Apostle John was expecting the Lord Jesus to be in the same blood and bone body when He appears to the saints then it would make no sense for him to say the following:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).
The discussion about being made like Him revolves around "seeing Him as He is." It will not be until they "see Him" that they will know what kind of body they will have.
If the saints were expecting that the Lord Jesus was going to appear in a flesh and bone body and they were going to be made like Him then they would know exactly what they will be like when He appears.
Now for my recap. If you have changed your view about any of your ideas let me know.
You think that a spiritual body is a house made with hands.
You think that a spiritual body is a natural body minus the blood.
You think that the Lord Jesus' heavenly body of which John was given a vision is the same body seen by many people after He was raised from the dead: "His eyes were as a flame of fire...and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."
Even though the saints were not expecting the Lord Jesus to return in a flesh and bone body you are absolutely sure that He will.
glorydaz
Well-known member
glorydaz
Well-known member
But I thought your whole point was that Jesus Christ never changed.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
His essential nature never changed. Paul compares the body to clothing which a person puts on (2 Cor.5:2). So a change in clothes does not change the essential nature of a person.
Paul speaks of both the inner man and the outward man. The inner man is the soul and the outward man refers to man in his body.
Interplanner
Well-known member
The question in Hebrews is not about his corporeality. It is about the fact that the same one Gospel has been the anchor line of the Bible all along, not the post-exilic Judaized understanding of the Law and history that inevitably sought to be rid of Christ.
The new covenant was known and planned before the old. Yesterday, today, forever.
The new covenant was known and planned before the old. Yesterday, today, forever.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The New Covenant is not now in force so it cannot be said that it is yesterday and today. Among other things the New Covenant promised to Israel is in regard to earthly things, such as the land. And once it does come in force it will end when the earth goes up in smoke.
*****
Gen. 3:22
This verse in context is talking about “man”, that is mankind, and describing the now fallen nature of mankind.
Hebrew 13:9
Jesus … God incarnate. His character and principles are never changing.
He took on the form of man but kept retained His character and principles that of God, evidenced by the Word (Jesus) of God.
John 1:14
You can put orange juice into a glass or into your shoe …. but it is still orange juice. The orange juice hasn’t changed.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Sorry there is no NT basis for what you are saying. It never looks the same as it does in the OT, which is why we have the apostles' official interpretation through Christ, from what he taught in the 40 days. The new covenant is clearly enjoyed and in force now in Christ, in the letter to Hebrews, in 1 and 2 Corinthians and in the gospel accounts.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What He willed on one occasion (Mt.26:39) was certainly different from that of the Father's so I would say that both His character and principles did change in some respect after He became flesh.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The "fathers" of those who will have their sins forgiven under the New Covenant were the those who the Lord took out of Egypt (Jer.31:32) so the fathers were Israelites according to the flesh.
Since their fathers were Israelites according to the flesh then they too will also be Israelites according to the flesh.
According to your blunders the LORD told them something which was not true because you say that that prophecy has already been fufulfilled. You are walking in darkness and hopefully no one will believe your fables!
The orange juice did change. It changed shape. Yes, it's still orange juice, but it's not the same shape in a shoe as it is in a glass. It's still orange juice, but it did change.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Heb 2:9 kicks off and defines everything else in Hebrews. It's the one gospel. There is no evidence in the NT of the apostles going back and forth between 2 systems and being psychotic or skitzophrenic or confused or in competition. Everyone knew the finality of what had been said in Mt 24, Lk 21, 23, Heb 5, I Th 2.
And don't forget: THE LAND/RACE DOESN'T MATTER TO THE MISSION!!! The Gospel generated a mission, which was always the intention, since Gen 12 or 3. It was post-exile Judaism that fixed everything to the land. Gal 3:17. Have you realized that you need to disconnect and unhook from post-exile Judaism?
No where does the NT say you are in darkness if you are in christ, Col 1. You're just silly. "Light" is not to believe in and fight for a race or land.
Interplanner
Well-known member
The NT does not track the flesh. The 'Hebrews' of the letter are those who have faith like in ch 11, not those who cow to Judaism.