God's Truth
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No one is born spiritually alive.
I can hardly believe you said that.
All are born having to be taught about God.
ECT The Same Yesterday, and Today, and For Ever
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
No one is born spiritually alive.
I can hardly believe you said that.
All are born having to be taught about God.
You refuse to believe what is written in Genesis-Revelation. And you refuse to believe what the Lord Jesus Christ said here, Mt.-John, and what the "Lord from heaven", through Paul, said here,Romans-Philemon. But you refuse to believe Him!
Tell me why we should believe you, instead of the Lord Jesus Christ, and Paul?
Check. Fun!!!
Aren't we all blessed, to be taught, by Jerry, on how to win a debate, TOL audience, with the above "shut down" closes/debate clinchers?!!!!!
Of course-he is always right.
God's Truth
New member
The Spirit is invisible. God the Father is invisible, and He is Spirit. Jesus is that same Spirit, but with a body.
Jesus is God the Father with a body.
So, when the Lord Jesus Christ said to the 12, including Judas, to preach the gospel, they were to preach 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV?
"gospel" =invisible= always has the same meaning in the bible, as context is irrelevant, and thus you assert the same with the word "gospel."
So do you still argue that even though Judas was lost, he preached the 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV good news?
Jerry asserts that Judas preached 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV gospel-on record.
See how that works? All words, have the same meaning, and all of the bible means the same thing!!!!!!
Why don't you believe the bible?
Fun!
But, then again, you are always right.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Then in your infinite wisdom please tell us what the Lord Jesus meant when He used the words "Son of Man"and "Son of God" when He referred to Himself.
Right Divider
Body part
Are you completely unaware that the exact meaning of "Son of man" as used by the Lord Jesus Christ has been debated for 2000 years?
I don't have "infinite wisdom", but apparently you think that you do.
You've still failed to attempt to show when the Lord became the "Son of man" based on scripture. Perhaps you think that He is also eternally a man.
God's Truth
New member
God had the body of the man Jesus Christ in the resurrected form before man was made, before anything was ever made.
(Leviticus 26:11) (Leviticus 26:30) (Isaiah 42:1) (Zechariah 11:8) (Matthew 12:18) (Hebrews 10:38).
These scriptures speak of God having a soul…a soul is a body with a spirit. If these scriptures are not about Jesus, and if Jesus did not exist in a Spiritual body, then how God who lives in unapproachable light that no one has seen have a body?
Jesus gave up that body in heaven and came to earth in the likeness of sinful flesh, flesh of man on earth, with blood and flesh that ages and dies.
Jesus was made in human likeness, being found in the appearance of a man, he was made like a human in every way in the likeness of sinful flesh.
Philippians 2:7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross!
2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.
Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people
Romans 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David,
Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,
(Leviticus 26:11) (Leviticus 26:30) (Isaiah 42:1) (Zechariah 11:8) (Matthew 12:18) (Hebrews 10:38).
These scriptures speak of God having a soul…a soul is a body with a spirit. If these scriptures are not about Jesus, and if Jesus did not exist in a Spiritual body, then how God who lives in unapproachable light that no one has seen have a body?
Jesus gave up that body in heaven and came to earth in the likeness of sinful flesh, flesh of man on earth, with blood and flesh that ages and dies.
Jesus was made in human likeness, being found in the appearance of a man, he was made like a human in every way in the likeness of sinful flesh.
Philippians 2:7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross!
2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.
Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people
Romans 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David,
Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That is not true so I can see that you are reverting to attacking the messenger since you cannot answer the message. If it is on record then I challenge you to quote me saying that. And when you are unable to do that then an apology is in order.
Are you really so confused that you think that the Father is both spirit and a man?:
Again, here are the words of the Lord Jesus and He is speaking about the Father being spirit:
"But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (Jn.4:23-24).
If we are to believe you we must throw our reason to the wind and believe that the Father is both spirit and man!
And that even though He is spirit and invisible you say that He is merely out of sight.
John 16 KJV
1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.
19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.(The second coming-my note)
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.
19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.(The second coming-my note)
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
God's Truth
New member
(Leviticus 26:11) (Leviticus 26:30) (Isaiah 42:1) (Zechariah 11:8) (Matthew 12:18) (Hebrews 10:38).
These scriptures speak of God having a soul…a soul is a body with a spirit. If these scriptures are not about Jesus, and if Jesus did not exist in a Spiritual body, then how God who lives in unapproachable light that no one has seen have a body?
Those scriptures prove that Jesus is God the Father with a body.
Jesus' body is the soul of God the Father; Jesus is the temple.
You assert that Judas preached 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, as context for biblical words, such as "invisible," "gospel," is irrelevant to you
No.
Oh.
I explained, but you are always right! I explained, but you refuse to believe the bible. Why should we believe you, instead of the bible?
Fun!
I knew that clincher was coming...The old "quit attacking me" "Hail Mary." You are a Catholic?
Fun! Send another debate ender. Teach us....You are always right.
How about: You are so mean spirited!!!!
God's Truth
New member
How was God the Father seen?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So what? Many things have been debated in Christendom for thousands of years.
You are under the impression that when the Lord Jesus used the term "Son of Man" at John 3:13 He was not meaning "Man" but something else. What was He saying when He used that term in that verse?
And tell us what He meant when he used the term "Son of God."
Right Divider
Body part
Just making sure that you know that the understanding of that TERM is not cut and dry.
Please show us, from scripture, WHEN the Lord became the Son of man.
That He was the God's Son.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I never asserted such a thing.
When I said that God is spirit you said:
God who is spirit is the Father and the Father is not "both spirit, and a man" as you assert:
"But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (Jn.4:23-24).
You are totally confused.
Do you think that since the Father is both spirit and invisible He is just out of sight?
And since the Lord Jesus is the image of the invisible God and He too is described as being "invisible" now in heaven that He is just out of sight?
Yes, you did. You assert that Judas preached 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, as context for biblical words, such as "invisible," "gospel," is irrelevant to you.
You spam that to everyone.
You are totally confused.
Fun!
=all words in the bible always mean the same thing, and context is irrelevant.
You assert that Judas preached 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, as context for biblical words, such as "invisible," "gospel," is irrelevant to you.
So, since we cannot see a rock in the center of the earth, it is not visible, not able to be seen by the mortal eye?
Again..
Colossians 1:16 KJV For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
The context of "invisble" I cited, is the same here:
that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
As an analogy, for eg., a rock, now deep within the mantle of the earth, is presently unable to be seen by mankind, by "mortal" eyes; and, as far as I know, the technology does not currently exist to retrieve it, but that does not lead to the conclusion that the rock is not inherently, or metaphysically unable to be seen by mankind, by mortal eyes. The explanation for man’s inability to see the Lord Jesus Christ, presently, does not lie in the Saviour's "non-physical nature," as He still retains His glorified, "flesh and bone" resurrected body, as a man, but in His "location" now, behind a veil of glory, in the third heaven,impenetrable/impassable/"bullet proof" by mortal human eyes.
You:The context used when the word "invisible" is employed in the bible is irrelevant.
On record.
But, then again, you are always right.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
You: This "Jesus," while on earth, was visible. Thus, since God is invisible, this "Jesus" was/is not God.
Teach us...please?
John 16 KJV
1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
16 A little while, and ye shall not see me:and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.
19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.(The second coming-my note)
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I never said that!
Your little scheme is unwinding and that is why you just flat out refuse to answer my questions:
Do you think that since the Father is both spirit and invisible He is just out of sight?
And since the Lord Jesus is the image of the invisible God and He too is described as being "invisible" that He is just out of sight?
Yes, you did, as you argue that biblical words, such as "gospel," invisible," all mean the same thing when employed, as context is irrelevant.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
You: This "Jesus," while on earth, was visible. Thus, since God is invisible, this "Jesus" was/is not God.
You: You assert that Judas preached the 1 Cor. 15:1-4 gospel, per Luke 9:6 KJV.
On record.
glorydaz
Well-known member
What silly ideas are you talking about? The ones you've been putting out where He is invisible but looks like what John saw in Revelation? Which one is it? Invisible or not?
Answer me this....If the Lord Jesus had flesh like ours, how did he walk through walls, and appear and reappear at will?