ECT The Myth of 'Original Sin'

[geralduk]

The Augustine heresy of Original Sin (adopted by Calvinists as Total Depravity) is a nasty peice of eisogesis developed by Augustine in order to fit the beliefs he aquired from his time in Manicheanism.

It has no place in true Christianity.

It seems that after decades of people casting doubt as to GOD'S account of creation and it seems an awful lot of professing Christians have believed the lie of evolution or have compromised the truth with it. That the next step is to cast another cloud of dust into the eyes of the same.

Where does one begin?
God created man out of the dust of the earth.He created woman of the body of the man.
If you do not believe that we can go no further together.
It is written that "levied was in the loins of Abraham when he gave tithes to Malchesidec,.
If levied was in the loins of Abraham being a JEW.
then I was in the loins of the first Adam,being a gentile. As all men were.
Adam was not CREATED corrupt.nor was he created to be corrupted.
Nor was he created to sin or die.
For God declared what his will was when he said to Adam "of all the trees in the garden you may freely eat...."(this then included the tree of life )but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ye may NOT eat,for in the day ye eat thereof ye shall surely die "
By that statement alone the Word of God reproofs all who suggest the wicked character of the devil to God.
For God's eternal will was and has always been,that man should live and not die.
The doctrine of original sin is therefore true.
In that Adam committed that sin that effected all his seed. And as the head be came subject to sin and death by his disobedience.so then" by nature we are also sons of disobedience" (eph)
For is it not written by "one man's disobedience all die "?
You or another may not like the truth of it. But if you do not understand the 'problem',how then can you understand the answer to it?
"But by one man's obedience all men shall live"
In very truth,if you do not believe the first how then can you believe the second?
For if you deny the truth about the first Adam will you not then deny also the truth about the last Adam?
For is it not also written that the first Adam was but the foreshadow of him who was to come.
far better then to go to the source that is scripture that is the book of beginnings to know from whence we came and of what "sort"we are that we may by the grace of God no longer be a child of disobedience and of a corruptible seed.But rather be born again of an incorruptible seed which is the Word of God.

In Christ
gerald

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Controlled how? By choosing not to act upon it?

By exercising one's free will.

Christ (Matt 5:28) said to even look upon a woman with lust - without ever laying a hand on her - is the same sin as fornicating with her, so the lust itself is already sin.

Yes, but by exercising one's free will a person can think about other things than sex all the time.

Do you not believe that people do in fact possess free will?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Death comes to all men because of Adam's sin. (1 Cor 15:32 & Rom 5:14).

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).​

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil " (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All born in Adam are condemned to die (1 Cor. 15:22). Understand the spiritual consequences of the Fall of Man. "Spiritual consequences [of the Fall]: Separated from God (Eph. 4:18), Born in sin (John 3:6), Evil in heart (Matt. 15:19), Corrupt and perverse (Rom. 3:12–16), In bondage to sin (Rom. 6:19), In bondage to Satan (Heb. 2:14, 15), Dead in sin (Col. 2:13), Spiritually blind (Eph. 4:18), Utterly depraved (Titus 1:15), Change from, not in man (Jer. 2:22), Only God can change (John 3:16)." Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1996). Nelson’s quick reference topical Bible index (p. 220). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

You are reading things into verses which are not there. Please consider the fact that all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.In the following passage the Apostle Paul speaks of being "alive" once and when the commandment came he "died":

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).​

Paul is not speaking of "physical" death because he was alive physically when he wrote those words. He is speaking about breaking one of the Ten Commandments (v.7) and it was that which resulted in his "spiritual death."

In a commentary written by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary John A. Witmer writes, "As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).

Before anyone can die spiritually he must first be alive spiritually. So we can understand by Paul's own words that before he sinned he was alive spiritually. Therefore, he emerged from the womb spiritually alive--with absolutely no stain of what is called "Original Sin."

 

[Danoh]

Folks, Jerry alone is right in this; as he alone is right in all issues.

Its his sin nature. It blinds him to his obvious pride.

Good luck getting anywhere with him, lol

His OP, just another "Yea hath God said..."

The same lure by which Adam was lured in.

Lure em in, Jerry, that you might be like the most high on himself...

How art thou fallen in your pride, Jerry.

The guy is staring right at what he cannot but traffic in, being that he too is... kin to Adam...

How "original."

 

[brinny]

It seems that after decades of people casting doubt as to GOD'S account of creation and it seems an awful lot of professing Christians have believed the lie of evolution or have compromised the truth with it. That the next step is to cast another cloud of dust into the eyes of the same.

Where does one begin?
God created man out of the dust of the earth.He created woman of the body of the man.
If you do not believe that we can go no further together.
It is written that "levied was in the loins of Abraham when he gave tithes to Malchesidec,.
If levied was in the loins of Abraham being a JEW.
then I was in the loins of the first Adam,being a gentile. As all men were.
Adam was not CREATED corrupt.nor was he created to be corrupted.
Nor was he created to sin or die.
For God declared what his will was when he said to Adam "of all the trees in the garden you may freely eat...."(this then included the tree of life )but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ye may NOT eat,for in the day ye eat thereof ye shall surely die "
By that statement alone the Word of God reproofs all who suggest the wicked character of the devil to God.
For God's eternal will was and has always been,that man should live and not die.
The doctrine of original sin is therefore true.
In that Adam committed that sin that effected all his seed. And as the head be came subject to sin and death by his disobedience.so then" by nature we are also sons of disobedience" (eph)
For is it not written by "one man's disobedience all die "?
You or another may not like the truth of it. But if you do not understand the 'problem',how then can you understand the answer to it?
"But by one man's obedience all men shall live"
In very truth,if you do not believe the first how then can you believe the second?
For if you deny the truth about the first Adam will you not then deny also the truth about the last Adam?
For is it not also written that the first Adam was but the foreshadow of him who was to come.
far better then to go to the source that is scripture that is the book of beginnings to know from whence we came and of what "sort"we are that we may by the grace of God no longer be a child of disobedience and of a corruptible seed.But rather be born again of an incorruptible seed which is the Word of God.

In Christ
gerald

Exactly. Man was formed from the dust of the earth, and returns to the dust from whence he came. It is because of the curse that came upon man as a result of the original sin of Adam and Eve.

THAT is why we are in dire need of a Savior. Only HE can rescue us from our very sure end, returning to the dust from whence we came, for what He has done is defeated the curse of death, and sin, and our condemnation before God.

Without Him, we are but dust in the wind.

Tragic, isn't it?

Dust In The Wind

 

[steko]

Exactly. Man was formed from the dust of the earth, and returns to the dust from whence he came. It is because of the curse that came upon man as a result of the original sin of Adam and Eve.

THAT is why we are in dire need of a Savior. Only HE can rescue us from our very sure end, returning to the dust from whence we came, for what He has done is defeated the curse of death, and sin, and our condemnation before God.

Without Him, we are but dust in the wind.

Tragic, isn't it?

Dust In The Wind

Note:

Kerry Livgren, writer of 'Dust in the Wind' became a Christian, about the same time that I did in 79', after dabbling in the Urantia Book and then rejecting it.

 

[brinny]

Note:

Kerry Livgren, writer of 'Dust in the Wind' became a Christian, about the same time that I did in 79', after dabbling in the Urantia Book and then rejecting it.

Seeeeriously??!!! Praise God!!!!! Thank you for sharing that!!!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Folks, Jerry alone is right in this; as he alone is right in all issues.

Its his sin nature. It blinds him to his obvious pride.

Get a life!

 

[brinny]

Get a life!

This entire thread is about "life", isn't it? And the death thereof that has got its grip on ALL of us save for our Savior's claim and righteousness imparted to us.

Otherwise what we face is this, facing a holy God without a Defense Attorney, so to speak. We would be all on our own, facing the wrath of a holy God, alone.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Bolded and Underlined.

 

[serpentdove]

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men...

Cain murdered Abel (Gen. 4:8). He was not put to death. The law had not been given yet. You die for your own sin not Adam's (Matt. 15:19, 20). With will comes the the freedom to choose right or wrong. Your sin comes from your own heart not Adam not God (Jas 1:15).

Re: those who have never heard the gospel: "While they do not have enough light to save them, they do have enough sin to condemn them." ~ Adrian Rogers

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Bolded and Underlined.

Romans 5:14 KJV


14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come .

Emboldened and underlined.

 

[Danoh]

“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:” Gen. 3:22.

As is often the case in Scripture; in the above, one part of the passage, relates the intended sense of another part of it.

Note how that this issue of “man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:” Gen. 3:22, is not awareness of right and wrong, rather, the issue of a will like God’s own.

God’s will being His Own Will; a Will independent of any will other then His Own.

The issue with Adam, of a will within Adam now, towards, and determined by, his flesh’s own desire; a will to its own agenda - “…and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:” 3:22 –

Now influencing, and or willing, its own inclination, resulting in its own mind - of the flesh.

Romans 8:
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Later, the Law would be added. Towards what end?

Romans 7:

5. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

9. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

12. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Men die because sin is working in their members. This is something even religious people know to be true - that sin is working in their members - look at all creation - sin rots things.

Like an Aids virus an Aids baby has passed onto it from its infected mother - born with said virus working death in the poor thing.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Romans 5:14 KJV

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come .

Emboldened and underlined.

Right. Death reigned. Not sin.

I think we'll be at an impasse on this, Bruddah.

As long as someone isn't overtly Pelagian, insisting man can effect his own salvation from his own goodness; I don't see that it makes much difference. Though I will continue to disciple the truth in those whom God has placed within my spiritual care.

 

[Danoh]

Right. Death reigned. Not sin.

I think we'll be at an impasse on this, Bruddah.

As long as someone isn't overtly Pelagian, insisting man can effect his own salvation from his own goodness; I don't see that it makes much difference. Though I will continue to disciple the truth in those whom God has placed within my spiritual care.

I like your attitude; that we can differ in our understanding and you're fine with that.

We obviously differ in our understanding of this issue.

Doesn't mean we need to differ any further than our understandings.

 

[ttruscott]

...

Stop telling me where I think our own sin came from and tell me where YOU think it came from. You haven't yet.

...

You still haven't answered where exactly that flaw within us all comes from. You say it didn't come from God...it didn't come from Adam...that means it must be innate to us all, meaning by design it did come from God after all. What's the alternative?

As I put onto every post in my sig, I think all sin came from our free will decisions to reject GOD or to oppose GOD in HIS plans. That we must have been in a state of ingenuous innocence is perhaps new material. The first such choice made us enslaved to the addictive nature of evil and we lost our free will and have been ruled by our desires, what some call a 'self will' and others our sinful natures, ever since.

That we are born in sin is scripturally evident and that we were conceived as sinners is proven by the sins of Jacob and Esau in the womb. Therefore we are led to study the scriptures for information that we might have had a life before becoming conceived as human in which we may have made our free will decision that made us sinners in GOD's sight pre-birth. And yes, there are a great many if the blinders called "We are created on earth!" are removed.

Even Christ did not refer to our conception as a creation but as a sowing into the world which cannot be a creation as the devil does it too. [To sow: to take from a place of storage and scatter in a place of growth.]

Peace, Ted

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This entire thread is about "life", isn't it?

Actually, it is about "the myth of 'Original Sin,'" which asserts that a person emerges from the womb spiritually dead.

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).​

However, Paul tells a different story:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).​

Paul is not speaking of "physical" death because he was alive physically when he wrote those words. He is speaking about breaking one of the Ten Commandments (v.7) and it was that which resulted in his "spiritual death."

In a commentary written by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary John A. Witmer writes, "As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).

Paul could not die spiritually unless he was first alive spiritually. So he was alive spiritually when he emerged from the womb.

 

[ttruscott]

Here is what Paul says about them before they were born:

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" (Ro.9:11).​

Please quote the verses to which you make reference.

Thanks!

A bit more involved than usual but let's consider what Paul said in depth...


Rom 9:11 (For 1063 [the children] being 1080 0 not yet 3380 born 1080 , neither 3366 having done 4238 ANY 5100 good 18 or 2228 evil 2556, that 2443 the purpose 4286 of God 2316 according 2596 to election 1589 might stand 3306, not 3756 of 1537 works 2041, but 235 of 1537 him that calleth 2564

Now the translation of ANY g5100-τις, tis as any obviously supports your created on earth position but tis is also translated as certain ones:
Thayer's: 1. a certain, a certain one: used of persons and things concerning which the writer either cannot or will not speak

ANY: Strong's G5100 - tis
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) a certain, a certain one
2) some, some time, a while

AV — certain 104, some 73, any man 55, any 37, one 34, man 34, anything 24, a 9, certain man 7, something 6, somewhat 6, ought 5, some man 4, certain thing 2, divers 2, he 2, thing 1, another 2, misc 22

What might this construe? Well any means none in your case and certain means some unmentionable (unmentioned) things in my case. If Paul was trying to hide our pre-earth existence and yet say that our election was not on merit by mentioning the election of a proven sinner in the womb then he hints at two types of sin, one of which he does not mention here but alludes to as a certain type of sin. It is as if he wrote, and neither had done such and such good or bad, leading us to ask, what such and such?

The certain sin is a sin on earth or sin in a human body. The counter point that remains hidden by this phrasing (hidden since no one is asking), "Well where else could they sin?" is sins before their earthly body in the spirit realm.

In other words: what Paul is getting at is, neither having done any good or evil (works on the post-birth side of the womb) that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works (done on the post-birth side of the womb) but of HIM that calleth (when one is on the post-birth side of the womb).

Peace, Ted

 

[ttruscott]

Original sin a "myth", eh? You are, of course entitled to your opinion. However what you are stating here is at odds with the Bible, and the Creator, the living God, El Elyon, God Most High.

He deemed it tragically necessary to provide a Savior to die, shedding His perfectly SINLESS BLOOD for our poor selves (return to dust from whence we came fallible beings), destined for the curse of death and damnation, because of sin, that ALL are born into because of the sin of Adam and Eve = "Original sin".

Yup there it is.

At least that's what the God of the Bible says.

But hey, as stated earlier, you are entitled to your opinion.

Thank you kindly.

This adds nothing to this debate - just a re-hash of interpretive theological constructs based upon the blasphemy that GOD needs to create us evil for some reason, that HE needs evil for any reason, and that HE would create HIS Bride as evil for any reason

rather than create us all as ingenuously innocent as HE apparently proved He could do with Adam and Eve. The elect angels have free will and are doing pretty good without being born into Adam's sin and thereby being created with a sinful nature.

Peace, Ted