ECT The Myth of 'Original Sin'

[1Mind1Spirit]

Right. Death reigned. Not sin.

I think we'll be at an impasse on this, Bruddah.

As long as someone isn't overtly Pelagian, insisting man can effect his own salvation from his own goodness; I don't see that it makes much difference. Though I will continue to disciple the truth in those whom God has placed within my spiritual care.

Wouldn't want it any other way

 

[ttruscott]

The wages of sin is death. (Rom 6:23)

Death comes to all men because of Adam's sin. (1 Cor 15:32 & Rom 5:14)

...

1 Cor 15:32 is outside our context - seems to be a bad reference.

Rom 5:14 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

refers to those who never disobeyed a law of GOD like Adam did yet their death proves they were sinners. You suggest that this could only be true if they inherited Adam's sin.

I contend that they became sinners by their own free will pre- their conception on earth and brought that sin with them when they were sowed into the world (by either the Son of Man or the devil which proves sowing cannot refer to our creation) as did Adam and it was Adam's judgment of death that was passed to them, not his sin.

Peace, Ted

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

This adds nothing to this debate - just a re-hash of interpretive theological constructs based upon the blasphemy that GOD needs to create us evil for some reason, that HE needs evil for any reason, and that HE would create HIS Bride as evil for any reason

rather than create us all as ingenuously innocent as HE apparently proved He could do with Adam and Eve. The elect angels have free will and are doing pretty good without being born into Adam's sin and thereby being created with a sinful nature.

Peace, Ted

It is God's son who needed to do something not God.

Maybe you should learn the difference between the two.

The bride is Christ's not God's.

 

[ttruscott]

I already addressed that. No one is saying we share in Adam's guilt, or that he can be blamed for our own.

...

We are born sinners because of inheriting Adam's sin (and if nothing is done about it we will goto hell) yet as born sinners who can do no good with who have no free will ever of our own WE ARE STILL RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR SIN and ADAM and GOD ARE NOT???

Double-think, believing opposites are true at the same time is still alive well past 1984.

Peace, Ted

 

[serpentdove]

Adam lost dominion. Jesus did not argue when Satan said that he would give him world during his temptation (Lk 4:6). It was, in fact, his (1 Jn 5:19, Rev. 12:9). Men are in bondage to sin (Rom. 6:19). They must be born again (Jn 8:36, 3:7). Jesus is the sin-bearer for this lost and dying world (Jn 1:29, 3:7). Everyone knows the world is messed up--men are without excuse (Rom. 1:20). Read the book. We win (Jn 5:26-27, 2 Thess. 2:8, 9). Side with winners (n 16:33, 1 Cor. 15:24–28, Re 3:5). :king:

See:

How our Lord Jesus Christ regained Man’s lost Dominion

If God created all thing in 6 days and rested on the 7th was all life created in those 6
days...

Helter Sketler ~ U2

 

[ttruscott]

Cain murdered Abel (Gen. 4:8). He was not put to death. The law had not been given yet.

...

Two laws at least were given by then: one, the command to not eat of the tree of good and evil and two, to bring your sins to GOD for absolution found in the blood pointing to HIS Christ (the coats of skins) and not in the righteousness of works (the fig leaves).

Peace, Ted

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Cain murdered Abel (Gen. 4:8). He was not put to death. The law had not been given yet.

The meaning in the following passage verse is not "the law" but instead "law."

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).​

We can know that sin was imputed to men before "the law" of Moses came into existence. Here we can see that the Lord spoke of the "sin" committed by those of Sodom and Gomorrah and that happened before "the law" came into existence:

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous" (Gen.18:20).​

The fate of these ungodly men who lived in those cities bears witness to the fact that their sins were indeed imputed into their account:

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7).​

So the correct translation is not "the law" but instead "law." Romans 5:12-13 is speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men."

The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the requirements of the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them" (Ro.2:14-15).​

This fact must first be understood in order to understand what Paul is speaking about in the fifth chapter of the epistle to the Romans.

 

[serpentdove]

Two laws at least were given by then...

We know God's desires. The law is an expression of God's will (Rom. 7:2–9). His desires make a thing right or wrong. It's not the Ten Suggestions. It's the Ten Commandments (Ex. 31:18). When he states it--it becomes moral truth. When he says lit. light be, light becomes (Ge 1:3). He speaks and we obey or not (Jn 15:10). He could have said that gefilte fish is evil and it would be evil.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If Paul was trying to hide our pre-earth existence and yet say that our election was not on merit by mentioning the election of a proven sinner in the womb then he hints at two types of sin, one of which he does not mention here but alludes to as a certain type of sin. It is as if he wrote, and neither had done such and such good or bad, leading us to ask, what such and such?

That makes no sense. Paul states in no uncertain terms that before they were born they did nothing good or evil:

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger" (Ro.9:11-12).​

Besides that, this passage is not in regard to God's purpose according to election to salvation. Instead His purpose according to election was that "the elder shall serve the younger."

 

[brinny]

Actually, it is about "the myth of 'Original Sin,'" which asserts that a person emerges from the womb spiritually dead.

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).​

However, Paul tells a different story:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).​

Paul is not speaking of "physical" death because he was alive physically when he wrote those words. He is speaking about breaking one of the Ten Commandments (v.7) and it was that which resulted in his "spiritual death."

In a commentary written by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary John A. Witmer writes, "As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).

Paul could not die spiritually unless he was first alive spiritually. So he was alive spiritually when he emerged from the womb.

Where is this written in God's Word?

The only way we are alive spiritually is through Jesus Christ. Yes, we are all born dead spiritually. That is why we need a Savior so desperately. We were dead, but now are alive through Him.

Paul was a "dead man walking" before his conversion. So are we.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where is this written in God's Word?

The only way we are alive spiritually is through Jesus Christ.

What did Paul mean when he wrote this?:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died" (Ro.7:9).​

Yes, we are all born dead spiritually. That is why we need a Savior so desperately.

No, we do not become dead spiritually until we sin:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death...For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21,23).​

 

[Danoh]

What did Paul mean when he wrote this?:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died" (Ro.7:9).​

He is talking about his failed attempt to serve God in his own strength - Romans 6 -8.

This, toward the issues he is laying out the Establishment truth of, in those three chapters; Justification and its New Life having already been settled in Romans 1-5.

Six through eight being the issue of the need to walk in the New Life in the Spirit; in light of what the Spirit has accomplished in the Believer - raised him from the dead in Newness of Life in Christ and Empowered Him to walk in an Understanding of how the New Life works.

Towards said Establishment, or Understanding, he contrasts the mechanics of the New Life and its Empowerment, with the Old, and its Death dealing result on the Believer's ability to walk in the New.

Dead to sin, alive in Christ; chapter 6.

Dead to the Law, alive unto God, chapter 7.

Dead to the flesh, empowered by the Spirit; chapter 8.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He is talking about his failed attempt to serve God in his own strength - Romans 6 -8.

That makes no sense. Why would he speak of being "alive" if he only failed in his effort to sere God?:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died" (Ro.7:9).​

Nothing you say explains why Paul would use the expressions which speak of being alive and dying.

Let us look at this verse which supports my view:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away" (2 Cor.3:6-7).​

Here the Apostle Paul is contrasting the New Testament with the Ten Commandments (written and engraved in stones). In regard to the New Testament he says that "the spirit giveth life" so this is obviously referring to "spiritual life."

We are told to compare "spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor.2:13) so in order to maintain a logical consistency we must understand that the "ministration of death" refers to "spiritual" death. This idea is reinforced by the words of Paul at Romans 7:9-11 where he states that he died when he broke one of the Ten Commandments.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

If ANYONE truly understood Hamartiology (hamartia singular/plural and articular/anarthrous) and repentance and death (thanatos), it would be obvious that the Augustinian Original Sin doctrine is a fallacy without indulging in any form or degree of Pelagianism.

 

[Nick M]

If the teaching of 'Original Sin' is correct then we must believe that the LORD punishes men when they do the very things which He designed them to do

18Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

All are dead because of Adam.

Do you believe that people come out of the womb wholly inclined to all evil?

Not relevant. Nice misdirection.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

He is talking about his failed attempt to serve God in his own strength - Romans 6 -8.



Dead to sin, alive in Christ; chapter 6.

Dead to the Law, alive unto God, chapter 7.

Dead to the flesh, empowered by the Spirit; chapter 8.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

18Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

All are dead because of Adam.

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).​

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil " (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

 

[Danoh]

That makes no sense. Paul states in no uncertain terms that before they were born they did nothing good or evil:

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger" (Ro.9:11-12).​

Besides that, this passage is not in regard to God's purpose according to election to salvation. Instead His purpose according to election was that "the elder shall serve the younger."

Nope. He is not speaking of this same original sin issue in that passage.

Rather of those of the nation Israel not yet born to be entered into the Covenant by circumcision and its access to that nation's access by said Covenant unto the election of service. Said election had been of Grace promised Abraham as to his multiplied seed's aspect of that promise - "in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed."

As had been the case even before, during and after Essau screwed up as to his birthright as Circumcision; the children not yet born were, and remain "beloved for the father's sakes."

Paul is affirming in Romans 9-11 that God is not through with Israel's calling, given why He called that nation forth out of Abraham to begin with.

It is why the Apostle Paul ends Romans 11 in that spiritual dance of his in the spirit that he ends that chapter so beautifully in:

33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34. For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been his counsellor?
35. Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

The dear brother; though in the Body, nevertheless, where his kinsmen according to the flesh had been concerned and the seed of David; where their seemingly ended election unto service had been concerned, Paul had still been in his heart, "an Israelite indeed!"

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I have stated often that once one rejects that all are born in Adam, all manner of error ensues.

Jerry's public declaration denying original sin comports well with his error of claiming our Lord always existed as a man in heaven before He was born of Mary.

Jerry continues to demonstrate how far outside the camp he resides.

Spoiler

The church has long spoken of these things:

418 AD - Council of Carthage (Early Christian Church)

This council's position on original sin was, even "new-born children... have in them... original sin inherited from Adam".

529 AD - Council of Orange (Early Christian Church)

"... it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was 'changed for the worse' through the offense of Adam's sin..."

"...also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race..."

1530 - Augsburg Confession (Lutheran Church)

"...since the fall of Adam all men begotten in the natural way are born with sin, ...and that this disease, or vice of origin, is truly sin, even now condemning and bringing eternal death upon those not born again..."

1537 - The Smalcald Articles (Lutheran Church)

"... sin originated [and entered the world] from one man Adam, by whose disobedience all men were made sinners, [and] subject to death and the devil. This is called original or capital sin."

"This hereditary sin is so deep and [horrible] a corruption of nature that no reason can understand it, but it must be [learned and] believed from the revelation of Scriptures..."

1618 - The Canons of Dordt (Reformed Church)

"Man brought forth children of the same nature as himself after the fall. That is to say, being corrupt he brought forth corrupt children. The corruption spread, by God's just judgment, from Adam to all his descendants – except for Christ alone – not by way of imitation (as in former times the Pelagians would have it) but by way of the propagation of his perverted nature."

"Therefore, all people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin;..."

"... original sin in itself is enough to condemn the whole human race..."

"... unregenerate man is... totally dead in his sins... [and is] deprived of all capacity for spiritual good..."

1618 - Belgic Confession (Reformed Church)

"... by the disobedience of Adam original sin has been spread through the whole human race."

"It is a corruption of all nature-- an inherited depravity which even infects small infants in their mother's womb, and the root which produces in man every sort of sin. It is therefore so vile and enormous in God's sight that it is enough to condemn the human race,..."

1644 - First London Baptist Confession of Faith (Baptist Church)

"... first Eve, then Adam being seduced did wittingly and willingly fall into disobedience and transgression of the Commandment of their great Creator, for the which death came upon all, and reigned over all, so that all since the Fall are conceived in sin, and brought forth in iniquity, and so by nature children of wrath, and servants of sin, subjects of death,..."

1646 - The Westminster Confession of Faith (Presbyterian Church)

"Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit."

"By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body."

"They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed; and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation."

"Every sin, both original and actual,... bring guilt upon the sinner, whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God, and curse of the law, and so made subject to death..."

1689 - Second London Baptist Confession of Faith (Baptist Church)

"Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body."

"... and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death,..."

Q. E. D.

AMR

 

[Totton Linnet]

All human babies are also born dead....