ECT The Myth of 'Original Sin'

[Danoh]

I have stated often that once one rejects that all are born in Adam, all manner of error ensues.

Jerry's public declaration denying original sin comports well with his error of claiming our Lord always existed as a man in heaven before He was born of Mary.

Jerry continues to demonstrate how far outside the camp he resides.

Spoiler

The church has long spoken of these things:

418 AD - Council of Carthage (Early Christian Church)

This council's position on original sin was, even "new-born children... have in them... original sin inherited from Adam".

529 AD - Council of Orange (Early Christian Church)

"... it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was 'changed for the worse' through the offense of Adam's sin..."

"...also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race..."

1530 - Augsburg Confession (Lutheran Church)

"...since the fall of Adam all men begotten in the natural way are born with sin, ...and that this disease, or vice of origin, is truly sin, even now condemning and bringing eternal death upon those not born again..."

1537 - The Smalcald Articles (Lutheran Church)

"... sin originated [and entered the world] from one man Adam, by whose disobedience all men were made sinners, [and] subject to death and the devil. This is called original or capital sin."

"This hereditary sin is so deep and [horrible] a corruption of nature that no reason can understand it, but it must be [learned and] believed from the revelation of Scriptures..."

1618 - The Canons of Dordt (Reformed Church)

"Man brought forth children of the same nature as himself after the fall. That is to say, being corrupt he brought forth corrupt children. The corruption spread, by God's just judgment, from Adam to all his descendants – except for Christ alone – not by way of imitation (as in former times the Pelagians would have it) but by way of the propagation of his perverted nature."

"Therefore, all people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin;..."

"... original sin in itself is enough to condemn the whole human race..."

"... unregenerate man is... totally dead in his sins... [and is] deprived of all capacity for spiritual good..."

1618 - Belgic Confession (Reformed Church)

"... by the disobedience of Adam original sin has been spread through the whole human race."

"It is a corruption of all nature-- an inherited depravity which even infects small infants in their mother's womb, and the root which produces in man every sort of sin. It is therefore so vile and enormous in God's sight that it is enough to condemn the human race,..."

1644 - First London Baptist Confession of Faith (Baptist Church)

"... first Eve, then Adam being seduced did wittingly and willingly fall into disobedience and transgression of the Commandment of their great Creator, for the which death came upon all, and reigned over all, so that all since the Fall are conceived in sin, and brought forth in iniquity, and so by nature children of wrath, and servants of sin, subjects of death,..."

1646 - The Westminster Confession of Faith (Presbyterian Church)

"Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit."

"By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body."

"They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed; and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation."

"Every sin, both original and actual,... bring guilt upon the sinner, whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God, and curse of the law, and so made subject to death..."

1689 - Second London Baptist Confession of Faith (Baptist Church)

"Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body."

"... and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death,..."

Q. E. D.

AMR

Respectfully, AMR, nevertheless; where Jerry's clock might be stopped twice a day as to the correct time on some things, he is way, way ahead in his soundness in his understanding of much more than the Reformed can ever hope to be; given its approach.

Not surprisingly, then, this is where he is off, when he is - in your Reformed's tradition of reading things into the Scripture.

The Reformed approach is that in spades.

It just so happens that even a stopped clock ends up right at least twice a day.

Doesn't make it right the remaining 98%.

Be well, brother.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Nope. He is not speaking of this same original sin issue in that passage.

I was reyling to someone who said that the twinsfought in the womb and thus they sinned before they were ever born. That is why I quoted this verse:

Paul states in no uncertain terms that before they were born they did nothing good or evil:

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger" (Ro.9:11-12).​

 

[Danoh]

I was reyling to someone who said that the twinsfought in the womb and thus they sinned before they were ever born. That is why I quoted this verse:

Paul states in no uncertain terms that before they were born they did nothing good or evil:

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger" (Ro.9:11-12).​

I don't know Jerry, I'm trying to work with you, but I just can't.

It is not the doing that makes the sinner anymore than the doing that makes the saint.

We are born in Adam; there is no good in us that God will accept because the issue is not the issue of good and bad.

I see this as a Positional Truth issue.

But that's okay; we don't have to be on the same page.

And we cannot be. Some people see the very same bottle as half empty that others see as half full. And with good reason on both sides.

For I sincerely doubt that will be any different in glory, brother.

Lol - God; being Mid-Acts Dispensational Himself - appears to like distinctions between things; including within his creatures.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't know Jerry, I'm trying to work with you, but I just can't.

It is not the doing that makes the sinner anymore than the doing that makes the saint.

To be a sinner one must first sin.

To be a saint one must first believe.

 

[Danoh]

To be a sinner one must first sin.

To be a saint one must first believe.

Obviously, each our respective awareness of an abundance of passages, together with our respective, obvious difference in approach still ends us up at an impasse in some areas, brother.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one; focus our collective efforts against the great; manifold error that is Preterism.

Lol, I'm sure we'll differ on some of that too, brother.

I'm fine with that; may you also find its' solace.

In the spirit of Romans 14.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Obviously, each our respective awareness of an abundance of passages, together with our respective, obvious difference in approach still ends us up at an impasse in some areas, brother.

Here is what you said earlier:

It is not the doing that makes the sinner anymore than the doing that makes the saint.

Do you disagree with me that in order to become a saint a person must do something, and that something is to believe?

 

[Danoh]

Here is what you said earlier:



Do you disagree with me that in order to become a saint a person must do something, and that something is to believe?

Yes.

 

[ttruscott]

It is God's son who needed to do something not God.

Maybe you should learn the difference between the two.

The bride is Christ's not God's.

The Three are one GOD.

 

[ttruscott]

I was reyling to someone who said that the twinsfought in the womb and thus they sinned before they were ever born. That is why I quoted this verse:

Paul states in no uncertain terms that before they were born they did nothing good or evil:

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done ANY good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger" (Ro.9:11-12).​

Yes, replying to me while completely refusing to answer my contention that ANY could be interpreted in away contrary to his interpretation and so his interpretation was a theological construct only, not the world of GOD.

Of course I add my own interpretation for my own the theological pov which I contend is superior since it doesn't have to whitewash the sin of attempted murder just because it happened in a womb:

A bit more involved than usual but let's consider what Paul said in depth...

Rom 9:11 (For 1063 [the children] being 1080 0 not yet 3380 born 1080 , neither 3366 having done 4238 ANY 5100 good 18 or 2228 evil 2556, that 2443 the purpose 4286 of God 2316 according 2596 to election 1589 might stand 3306, not 3756 of 1537 works 2041, but 235 of 1537 him that calleth 2564

Now the translation of ANY g5100-τις, tis as any obviously supports your created on earth position but tis is also translated as certain ones:
Thayer's: 1. a certain, a certain one: used of persons and things concerning which the writer either cannot or will not speak

ANY: Strong's G5100 - tis
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) a certain, a certain one
2) some, some time, a while

AV — certain 104, some 73, any man 55, any 37, one 34, man 34, anything 24, a 9, certain man 7, something 6, somewhat 6, ought 5, some man 4, certain thing 2, divers 2, he 2, thing 1, another 2, misc 22

What might this construe? Well any means none in your case and certain means some unmentionable (unmentioned) things in my case. If Paul was trying to hide our pre-earth existence and yet say that our election was not on merit by mentioning the election of a proven sinner in the womb then he hints at two types of sin, one of which he does not mention here but alludes to as a certain type of sin. It is as if he wrote, and neither had done such and such good or bad, leading us to ask, what such and such?

The certain sin is a sin on earth or sin in a human body. The counter point that remains hidden by this phrasing (hidden since no one is asking), "Well where else could they sin?" is sins before their earthly body in the spirit realm.

In other words: what Paul is getting at is, neither having done any good or evil (works on the post-birth side of the womb) that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works (done on the post-birth side of the womb) but of HIM that calleth (when one is on the post-birth side of the womb).

Since I consider that it was the Holy Spirit that led me to this word study and this interpretation of the meaning of writing this sentence in this way, I remain satisfied with my understanding as not contradictory to this verse. I am certainly not just repeating someone else's "this is the way it is interpreted" theology.

Peace, Ted

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes.

You believe that a person becomes a saint by doing nothing?

Can you show me from the Scriptures even one person who has become a saint without believing?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Of course I add my own interpretation for my own the theological pov which I contend is superior since it doesn't have to whitewash the sin of attempted murder just because it happened in a womb:

Please quote your evidence from the Scriptures which speak of an attempted murder of the twins while they were in the womb.

 

[Danoh]

You believe that a person becomes a saint by doing nothing?

Can you show me from the Scriptures even one person who has become a saint without believing?

Consider that you might be reading your take of what I meant into my words.

This might be taken as semantics; but my own view is that we are "made the righteousness of God in Him," not that, not we become saints. Rather, He imputes it on us.

2 Corinthians 5: 21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Like I said, we may differ on this.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This might be taken as semantics; but my own view is that we are "made the righteousness of God in Him," not that, not we become saints. Rather, He imputes it on us.

2 Corinthians 5: 21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Like I said, we may differ on this.

You are confusing justification with sanctification.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The church has long spoken of these things:

418 AD - Council of Carthage (Early Christian Church)

This council's position on original sin was, even "new-born children... have in them... original sin inherited from Adam".

Yes, it is obvious that the "Church" of Rome corrupted the teachings about sin since the time of Augustine the heretic and that the Reformation went right along with this corruption.

 

[genuineoriginal]

It is not the doing that makes the sinner anymore than the doing that makes the saint.

Actually, it is the doing that makes the sinner.

A thief is not a thief until he attempts to steal.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

To be a sinner one must first sin.

Actually, it is the doing that makes the sinner.

By Adam's sin he fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body. Adam being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions. Mankind is seen by God as sinful because of mankind's solidarity with Adam.

We sin because we are sinners. We are not sinners because we sin. This is why David lamented thusly (Ps. 51:5).

1. The universality of sin cannot be accounted for by pointing to societal or environmental factors.

2. The universality of sin is explained by the Fall of mankind.

3. Original sin does not refer to the first sin, but to the result of that sin.

4. All people are born with a sinful nature or "original sin."

AMR

 

[everready]

Its no myth its fact.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


everready

 

[Danoh]

By Adam's sin he fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body. Adam being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions. Mankind is seen by God as sinful because of mankind's solidarity with Adam.

We sin because we are sinners. We are not sinners because we sin. This is why David lamented thusly (Ps. 51:5).

1. The universality of sin cannot be accounted for by pointing to societal or environmental factors.

2. The universality of sin is explained by the Fall of mankind.

3. Original sin does not refer to the first sin, but to the result of that sin.

4. All people are born with a sinful nature or "original sin."

AMR

Exactly.

For if we are sinners because we sin, and sin is set off by the Law; then it is God who is making man a sinner!

 

[Cross Reference]

By Adam's sin he fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body. Adam being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions. Mankind is seen by God as sinful because of mankind's solidarity with Adam.

We sin because we are sinners. We are not sinners because we sin. This is why David lamented thusly (Ps. 51:5).

1. The universality of sin cannot be accounted for by pointing to societal or environmental factors.

2. The universality of sin is explained by the Fall of mankind.

3. Original sin does not refer to the first sin, but to the result of that sin.

4. All people are born with a sinful nature or "original sin."

AMR

QUESTION: How does unregenerate mankind find find favor with God?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

QUESTION: How does unregenerate mankind find find favor with God?

By believing the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit:

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake" (1 Thess.1:5).​

And that truth is made even more clear when we consider these words of the Lord and Savior:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​