ECT The Myth of 'Original Sin'

iamaberean

New member
The proponents of 'Original Sin' assert that all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":

Not all men came thru Adam but he was the one to whom 'LORD God' filled with a living soul.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Note that the 'LORD God' was not mentioned in Gen 1.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Which is quite true unless you want to grant man merit and reason to boast for his own salvation.

Let's not rob God of His glory by arguing He simply rubber stamps faith forseen as a choice by peering into the future to see what His creatures will do—in effect rewarding them. God is not a debtor to man.

Election is unconditional as far as man is concerned, for reasons known only to God's good pleasure and counsel (Deut. 29:29).

AMR

If you are so inclined and would take the time to do so, could you please address my above post #154. :)
 

Cross Reference

New member
Which is quite true unless you want to grant man merit and reason to boast for his own salvation.

Let's not rob God of His glory by arguing He simply rubber stamps faith forseen as a choice by peering into the future to see what His creatures will do—in effect rewarding them. God is not a debtor to man.

Election is unconditional as far as man is concerned, for reasons known only to God's good pleasure and counsel (Deut. 29:29).

AMR


Certainly Adam was elected to be what he failed to live up to. So it was as well with King Saul and Solomon.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Which is quite true unless you want to grant man merit and reason to boast for his own salvation.

Believing the truth, especially one which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit, does not merit anything for anyone.

Of course once again you answered nothing which I said in my post.

You must think that one can be chosen "in Christ" without believing. Is that what you think?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
As noted earlier (see aforemetioned David's lament in Psalms), Scripture disagrees with you.

The Lord Jesus disagrees with you idea that infants emerge from the womb spiritually dead. Let us look at what He said about little children:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

Are we to believe that the Lord believed that infants are born dead in sin but yet He would say that "the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these"? Of course not!

At another place we see the Lord Jesus speaking about children and here the same truth can be seen:

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).​

If little children possess the stain of "Original Sin" then it would make no sense for the Lord to say, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
 

iamaberean

New member
Who are some men who came from someone other than Adam?

Adam (men) were created by Elohim during the sixth day.

The man named Adam was formed (not created) during the seventh day by LORD God.

Is there a difference between 'Elohim' and 'Jehovah Elohim'? There certainly is, ask a Jew if you don't think so.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The man named Adam was formed (not created) during the seventh day by LORD God.

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made" (Gen.2:1-3).​
 

Danoh

New member
The Lord Jesus disagrees with you idea that infants emerge from the womb spiritually dead. Let us look at what He said about little children:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

Are we to believe that the Lord believed that infants are born dead in sin but yet He would say that "the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these"? Of course not!

At another place we see the Lord Jesus speaking about children and here the same truth can be seen:

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).​

If little children possess the stain of "Original Sin" then it would make no sense for the Lord to say, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

His point is that children are open to believing...

But, see what you will... believe... instead...
 

whitestone

Well-known member
in the order of creation (Colossians 1:15-18 KJV),the Savior is created first,,before the save'ie(man),,that is the one who is to save is created before that which requires salvation,,
 

iamaberean

New member
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made" (Gen.2:1-3).​


Gen 1 is about creation, Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:
He sent these people out to replenish the earth, and subdue it.


Gen 2 is about the covenant LORD God made with a man he named Adam.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

LORD God formed this man he named Adam with knowledge of God and a living soul.
 
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Ask Mr. Religion

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The Lord Jesus disagrees with you idea that infants emerge from the womb spiritually dead. Let us look at what He said about little children:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

In saying this, Our Lord was repeating the point He had made after the disciples argued about which of them was the greatest (see your quote of the passage below): “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (18:3).

Essentially Our Lord was saying that His followers must trust Him with simple, childlike faith, an implicit faith, just as children trust their parents implicitly.

At another place we see the Lord Jesus speaking about children and here the same truth can be seen:

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).​
Any time we see the term "except" or "unless" (in other translations), we know that it introduces a necessary condition that has to be fulfilled for the desired result to take place. The condition that Jesus said has to be met in order for someone to enter the kingdom of God is conversion.

Jesus states that conversion must be in the direction of childlikeness.

Jesus did not bring a young child into the midst of His disciples to tell them they must be innocent like a child in order to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus knew that young children are not small angels. He knew how self-centered and demanding they can be. Instead, He was telling them to become like children in their humility. A young child does not yet think he knows more than his parents. Rather, he thinks his mother and father know everything. If a mother tells her two-year-old that X, Y, or Z is true, the child believes it. That child has what is called in technical language a fides implicitum, an implicit faith.

No, Jerry, your personal interpretation cannot stand against the full counsel of Scripture on this topic. None of these passages have anything to do with the death of infants and their salvific state.

AMR
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Believing the truth, especially one which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit, does not merit anything for anyone.
If by this you mean to imply there is absolutely nothing the person does, including 'believing' that must precede this coming regenerative power of the Spirit, then welcome to Calvinism. ;)

I suspect you want to add that faith comes logically first, then comes this regenerative power of the Spirit. This is part and parcel merit on the behalf of man and debt owed by God to 'reward' said belief. God is a debtor to no man.

AMR
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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If you are so inclined and would take the time to do so, could you please address my above post #154. :)

Sad to read you deny original sin.

As for the issue of "how" the sin of Adam is propagated to all his progeny, as you know there are two schools of thought, traducianism and creationism. Choose one.

AMR
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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And if they know not His Name??????? I guess they are just out of luck or, whatever?

This presumes contrary to what Scripture teaches. See Romans 1 for example.

All know, but suppress the truth and recast what they know into a lie via faulty reasoning. Hence all are without excuse.

By your logic, it is best to never send out missionaries to the far reaches of the world. Better to let folks remain in their so-called ignorance and presume God will save them. After all, God is so loving that He will give them a pass for their refusal to see His glory in the very world around them. Sigh.

AMR
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Essentially Our Lord was saying that His followers must trust Him with simple, childlike faith, an implicit faith, just as children trust their parents implicitly.

Of course what the Lord Jesus said about little children here in "bold" has no place in your heart:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

If these little children were dead in sin as you insist, then He would never have said such a thing.

No, Jerry, your personal interpretation cannot stand against the full counsel of Scripture on this topic. None of these passages have anything to do with the death of infants and their salvific state.

Let us look at a verse where Paul describes his salvation:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts, it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth:

"renewing of the Holy Spirit."

If a person is "regenerated" or "renewed" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit.

That can only mean that a person is born of the Spirit when he is conceived.

If by this you mean to imply there is absolutely nothing the person does, including 'believing' that must precede this coming regenerative power of the Spirit, then welcome to Calvinism.

You need to get your face out of your books on Calvinism and actually read the Scriptures. Here John makes it plain that a person is regenerated when he receives life as a result of believing:

"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:31).​

Since that verse contradicts your man made ideas you must find some way to pervert what John said there.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Sad to read you deny original sin.

As for the issue of "how" the sin of Adam is propagated to all his progeny, as you know there are two schools of thought, traducianism and creationism. Choose one.

AMR

Yes, and I'd have to say Traducianism (mediate creation of souls) is the closest, and would probably label myself a Neo-Traducianist. Creation was finished (according to linearity of time) in Genesis 2:1. Souls being imediately created at conception or birth is untenable (and certainly presents issues for Original Sin), though mediate creation of souls is a varied topic (paternity/maternity/both, etc,).

But this is propagation of souls. I was more interested in you outlining exactly how a somethinglessness (hamartia) is passed from generation to generation as a subset topic particularly.

Scripture points to spiritual death being inherited, which would be the foundational mediate spiration of the human spirit with no interactive communion with God. This would inevitably result in sin, as God's standard of righteousness could not be inwardly communed, resulting in the missing share/part that is hamartia, for which the wages is physical death.

I see no scriptural precedent for sin being inherited. Death was inherited.

In Adam all DIED. Sin entered the cosmos and death by sin, and DEATH passed upon all men. The sting of DEATH is sin, not vice versa.

Augustine's (yak and argh) Original Sin doctrine is wholly predicated upon Psalm 51:5 and its misapplication to read into other less explicit references.

And I am even more vehemently anti-Pelagian, so all standard arguments to impugn me personally are nullified.

Conceived in spiritual death, man can neither escape sin's inevitability nor effect his own salvation.

There's no sin imputed where there is no law, and law requires competency before it can be distributed for imputation of sin.

You seem to always want to just post blurbs without actually engaging in meaningful apologetics, instead quoting statements of faith.

I wouldn't be asking if I didn't want a mature representation of Original Sin to examine and discuss.

Too many are blaming Adam for THEIR sin; and then there are the mad MADists who deny their sin in various manners, and don't know the difference between singular/plural and articular/anarthrous sin as a NOUN, contrasted with the verb as doing and its resulting NOUN as done.

You seem to want to ignore and assert, including with fallacious opera ad intra internal filiation and spiration in the other thread.

If you don't want to discuss these things in some depth, just tell me and I'll desist. I have no duplicitous motives.
 
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PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
I know you're not really surprised, though. I'm not.

Says the guy who doesn't know the difference between singular/plural and articular/anarthrous hamartia or between those and hamartano or hamartema.

You think sin is all individual acts, and ALL your preferred doctrines are jacked up. You think you have two natures. Yak.
 
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