ECT The Myth of 'Original Sin'

[Nick M]

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men."

18Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Condemnation is judgment to be separated from God. Only in Christ is one come back. Keep trying. Because of Adam, all are dead.

 

[ttruscott]

Consider that you might be reading your take of what I meant into my words.

This might be taken as semantics; but my own view is that we are "made the righteousness of God in Him," not that, not we become saints. Rather, He imputes it on us.

2 Corinthians 5: 21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Like I said, we may differ on this.

Does 2 Corinthians 5: 21 actually say we are holy only by imputation? I know that by our faith we are imputed righteousness but does that mean we are holy?

Somehow this idea must be reconciled with the instructions of Heb 12

5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

In order:
• disciple is not proof we are not of GOD nor a lack of HIS love
• it is a lack of discipline that proves you are not of GOD
• DISCIPLINE IS PAINFUL but it is the training that makes us holy and righteous.

Does a father rebuke and chasten his sons for good choices? Obviously not so these legitimate sons, that is, true believers with living faith, make moral mistakes (sin) and then suffer to learn righteousness...you don't hear this everyday but it is in the bible every day.

And all this happens while we are under Christ's righteousness. ???

I reconcile this by accepting the contention that His righteousness covers us legally in GOD's eyes so GOD can adopt us back into HIS family and start the work of discipline we need so bad. Rebirth breaks the enslaving addiction we have to sin which destroyed our free will but after rebirth, though our free will is restored, we still have memories of the pleasure snd profits of sin so we must be trained to resist temptation and by our free will become holy and perfect in righteousness which is done by the suffering of chastisement for our sins.

Whether you accept free will in a sinner or not, these verses about us ACHIEVING righteousness by training with suffering cannot contradict our understanding of His righteousness being imputed to us.

Peace, Ted

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That's what you end up at, Jerry, when you attempt to prove what you have concluded before the fact of its thorough examination.

No, this is one of the verses which led me to conclude that an infant comes out of the womb spiritually alive.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

18Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Condemnation is judgment to be separated from God. Only in Christ is one come back. Keep trying. Because of Adam, all are dead.

When we look at these two verses we can understand why all are dead because of Adam's sin:

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).​

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil " (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

if Adam would have remained in a state of innocence then the knowledge of "law" would not have spread to all his descendants and therefore their sins would not have been put into their account because:

"sin is not put to account when there is no law."​

 

[ttruscott]

...

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth:

"renewing of the Holy Spirit."​

If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit.

Reps to you...

Like a lamb gone astray suggests he was a lamb of GOD before he went into sin and later returned to his Shepherd? as per 1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. And the prodigal son was a son before he left for sin city (the world) and was still a son in his sins.

Sheep are not reborn goats.
The good seed are not reborn tares.

We were separated into the two groups before we were sown into the world and sown cannot refer to our creation as the devil does it too.

But we are born astray so when were we His Lambs and when did we go astray before our conception?

Peace,Ted

 

[ttruscott]

I believe they come out of the womb totally separated from God and it is not within their ability to bridge that gap.

...

But maybe not quite so totally separated, eh, as sinners we are still under HIS promise of election to heaven by means of the salvation found in HIS Son, the Christ.

Peace, Ted

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So keep your interpretation if you like but please remember when you think about my theology that my interpretation has a wee bit stronger support in the language.

According to your ideas the following verse is speaking about an attempted murder by the twins while they were in the womb:

Gen 25:21 Isaac prayed to the Lord on behalf of his wife, because she was childless. The Lord answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant. 22 The babies JOSTLED each other within her, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” So she went to inquire of the Lord.

You never gave a meaning for the Hebrew word translated "jostled" which refers to an attempted murder by the twins while they were in the womb.

Of course you reject Paul's words here because they completely destroy your little theory:

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" (Ro.9:11).​

Nothing which you say about this subject makes a lick of sense!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It is God that bridges the gap and saves whom he wants for his own good purposes.

Here we see exactly why some are chosen for salvation and some are not:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

 

[HisServant]

Here we see exactly why some are chosen for salvation and some are not:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

And that supports what I have been saying.

God chose the elect from the beginning and it is he whom enables his elect to have the required faith.

Welcome to Calvinism.

 

[Danoh]

Here we see exactly why some are chosen for salvation and some are not:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

The salvation in that passage is from the Day of the Lord - the wrath to come; and the beginning refers back to the moment they believed the gospel.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And that supports what I have been saying.

God chose the elect from the beginning and it is he whom enables his elect to have the required faith.

You are confused. Let us look at this verse and we can see that the reference is in regard to "salvation" since Christians are chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

Once a person is "in Him" or "in Christ" he is saved:

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).​

So we can see that being chosen before the foundation of the world or being elected is in regard to salvation since the elect are chosen "in Him." In other words, no one can be chosen "in Him" unless salvation is secured.

However, Calvinist R.C. Sproul teaches that faith is not a necessary condition for election:

"The Reformed view holds that we are elected 'unto' faith and justification. Faith is a necessary condition for salvation but not for election" [emphasis added] (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology? [Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2005], 145).​

No one can be elected into being "in Christ" unless he believes.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The salvation in that passage is from the Day of the Lord - the wrath to come; and the beginning refers back to the moment they believed the gospel.

In the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary we see that the words "from the beginning" refers to "before the foundation of the world":

"from the beginning--"before the foundation of the world" (Eph 1:4; compare 1Co 2:7; 2Ti 1:9); in contrast to those that shall "worship the beast, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Re 13:8)" [emphasis added] (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, Commentary at 2 Thess. 2:13).​

In The Pulpit Commentary we read that the phrase "from the beginning" refers to "from eternity":

"The phrase, 'from the beginning,' does not denote 'from the beginning of the gospel,' but 'from eternity.'" [emphasis added] (Commentary at 2 Thess. 2:13).

 

[Danoh]

In the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary we see that the words "from the beginning" refers to "before the foundation of the world":

"from the beginning--"before the foundation of the world" (Eph 1:4; compare 1Co 2:7; 2Ti 1:9); in contrast to those that shall "worship the beast, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Re 13:8)" [emphasis added] (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, Commentary at 2 Thess. 2:13).​

In The Pulpit Commentary we read that the phrase "from the beginning" refers to "from eternity":

"The phrase, 'from the beginning,' does not denote 'from the beginning of the gospel,' but 'from eternity.'" [emphasis added] (Commentary at 2 Thess. 2:13).

In other words, ignore both 1st and 2nd Thessalonians for Paul's intended sense because those various non Mid-Acts sources you have just cite ignored all that Paul in those two Epistles leading to his statement in that one passage.

Got it. Good going as usual; Jerry.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

In other words, ignore both 1st and 2nd Thessalonians for Paul's intended sense because those various non Mid-Acts sources you have just cite ignored all that Paul in those two Epistles leading to his statement in that one passage.

You didn't quote even one verse to support your idea! Do we need to take up a collection to buy you a Bible?

 

[Danoh]

You didn't quote even one verse to support your idea! Do we need to take up a collection to buy you a Bible?

Lol, sure; take up a collection. But I have a Bible; so just use the money for a plane ticket to SLP; I'll fly down and we can chill together

Note what I wrote - In other words, ignore both 1st and 2nd Thessalonians for Paul's intended sense because those various non Mid-Acts sources you have just cited ignored all that Paul related in those two Epistles leading to his statement in that one passage.

Surely, you don't expect me to quote both epistles in their entirety?

Try this that follows; try it sometime - put away your practice of isolating a word or phrase from the text, not to mention, isolating it from its overall narrative; bringing in the Greek, together with this and that Dr. So and So, and supposed best translations - put all that away, if but for a moment, and just get in the Bible; stay in the Bible, and allow its overall narrative to give you the intended sense of a word or passage.

Why? Because "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" 2 Tim. 3: 16, 17.

It really is more than sufficient, Jerry.

All one really needs is Basic, Elementary School Grammar 101, applied "not" to "the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual," 1 Cor. 2:13.

I say all that well-aware that where you are concerned as to that, I have perhaps wasted words once more.

You will perhaps once more not deal with this issue that I raise here. You will instead attempt to redirect the discussion back to its prior coarse, absent of this key to it all.

I've read some three or four thousand books in my life. The one recurrent pattern I've noted in all that is that the answers they purport - their "what to think" - ever pales by comparison to the sure ground that is "how to approach studying out, and or thinking out a thing, to begin with."

Deal with that. Then we'll deal with where you or I might, or might not be, off as to your above assertions.

Else, round and round.... and round... we shall continue to go...

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I've read some three or four thousand books in my life. The one recurrent pattern I've noted in all that is that the answers they purport - their "what to think" - ever pales by comparison to the sure ground that is "how to approach studying out, and or thinking out a thing, to begin with."

Profoundly true, and virtually never broached. Brilliantly and simply cogent.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

QUESTION: How does unregenerate mankind find find favor with God?

It is quite simple...all who call upon the name of the Lord will find refuge.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

It is nothing but a fable that little children emerge from the womb dead in sin.

As noted earlier (see aforemetioned David's lament in Psalms), Scripture disagrees with you.

Ch X, WCF:

1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, (Rom. 8:30,Rom. 11:7, Eph. 1:10-11) by His word and Spirit, (2 Thess. 2:13-14, 2 Cor. 3:3,6) out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; (Rom. 8:2, Eph. 2:1-5, 2 Tim. 1:9-10) enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, (Acts 26:18, 1 Cor. 2:10,12, Eph. 1:17-18) taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; (Ezek. 36:26) renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, (Ezek. 11:19, Phil. 2:13, Deut. 30:6, Ezek. 36:27) and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: (Eph. 1:19, John 6:44-45) yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace. (Cant. 1:4, Ps. 110:3, John 6:37, Rom. 6:16-18)

2. This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from any thing at all foreseen in man, (2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:4-5, Eph. 2:4-5, 8-9) who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, (1 Cor. 2:14, Rom. 8:7, Eph. 2:5) he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it. (John 6:37, John 5:25)

3. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, (Luke 18:15-16, Acts 2:38-39, John 3:3, 5, 1 John 5:12, Rom. 8:9) who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: (John 3:8) so also are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. (1 John 5:12, Acts 4:12)

4. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, (Matt. 22:14) and may have some common operations of the Spirit, (Matt. 7:22, Matt. 13:20-21, Heb. 6:4-5) yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: (John 6:64-66, John 8:24) much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. (Acts 4:12, John 14:6, Eph. 2:12, John 4:22, John 17:3) And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested. (2 John 9-11, 1 Cor. 16:22, Gal. 1:6-8)
​

See expositions of the above here:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/shaw/shaw_10.html, e.g.,

"The Holy Spirit usually works by means; and the Word, read or preached, is the ordinary means which he renders effectual to the salvation of sinners. But he has immediate access to the hearts of men, and can produce a saving change in them without the use of ordinary means. As infants are not fit subjects of instruction, their regeneration must be effected without means, by the immediate agency of the Holy Spirit on their souls. There are adult persons, too, to whom the use of reason has been denied. It would be harsh and unwarrantable to suppose that they are, on this account, excluded from salvation; and to such of them as God has chosen, it may be applied in the same manner as to infants."

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

...R.C. Sproul teaches that faith is not a necessary condition for election:

"The Reformed view holds that we are elected 'unto' faith and justification. Faith is a necessary condition for salvation but not for election" [emphasis added] (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology? [Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2005], 145).​

Which is quite true unless you want to grant man merit and reason to boast for his own salvation.

Let's not rob God of His glory by arguing He simply rubber stamps faith forseen as a choice by peering into the future to see what His creatures will do—in effect rewarding them. God is not a debtor to man.

Election is unconditional as far as man is concerned, for reasons known only to God's good pleasure and counsel (Deut. 29:29).

AMR

 

[bybee]

Which is quite true unless you want to grant man merit and reason to boast for his own salvation.

Let's not rob God of His glory by arguing He simply rubber stamps faith forseen as a choice by peering into the future to see what His creatures will do—in effect rewarding them. God is not a debtor to man.

Election is unconditional as far as man is concerned, for reasons known only to God's good pleasure and counsel (Deut. 29:29).

AMR

I've puzzled over God's choices in the Bible sometimes. At one time it seemed so arbitrary (to me) that God made such a big deal out of Abel's offering and turned away from Cain's offering. Seemed like a set up for envy and strife? But then, it dawned on me, God knows the heart of a man, the spirit in which his actions are performed. And therein lies the difference between God's judgments and man's pronouncements.