ECT The Myth of 'Original Sin'

[ttruscott]

Whose?

I don't recall saying that in those words. I just quoted what Paul said: death and condemnation came to us by/through/on account of Adam. Make of that what you will.

Death and corruption came to us from Adam - yes - but you seem to support the idea that our sin came from him also as the reason for death...and not our own sin as the rest of the verse implies.

Peace, Ted

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Then you're basically admitting my (Paul's) point without wanting to come out and say it.

No I am not. You obviously didn't understand what I wrote. Let us look at this verse:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Ro.5:18).​

The offense of Adam was eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He now had a conscience which bore witness to God's law. And then all his descendants were born with a conscience of God's law.

If Adam would have not eaten of that tree he would have remained in innocence as well as all his descendants. Therefore, since they would not have a knowledge of the law and sin is not put to account when there is no law then they would not have died spiritually.

"for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).​

But Adam did sin by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And with that he had a conscience which bore witness to God's law and all his descendants also had a similar knowledge of God's law.

So by Adam's offense judgment came upon all men because now all had a knowledge of God's law and once they broke one of those laws sin was then put into their account:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Ro.5:18).​

Then that goes back to my earlier unanswered question: where does it come from? Where did Adam get it? Where do we get it?

Men sin because at one point in time they make a free will decision not to keep the Lord's law and instead to go their own way. It is that simple.

 

[musterion]

Death and corruption came to us from Adam - yes -

But sin did not? Not guilt for sin but sin itself.

but you seem to support the idea that our sin came from him also as the reason for death...and not our own sin as the rest of the verse implies.

Stop telling me where I think our own sin came from and tell me where YOU think it came from. You haven't yet.

 

[musterion]

No I am not. You obviously didn't understand what I wrote. Let us look at this verse:

"Therefore as by the offence of one [Adam] judgment came upon all to condemnation; ​

Wait a minute.

Paul said that JUDGMENT came upon us all by Adam's sin, resulting in our condemnation. That's two related but separate things.

Isn't that what you've spent hours telling us did NOT happen?

Men sin because at one point in time they make a free will decision not to keep the Lord's law and instead to go their own way. It is that simple.

You still haven't answered where exactly that flaw within us all comes from. You say it didn't come from God...it didn't come from Adam...that means it must be innate to us all, meaning by design it did come from God after all. What's the alternative?

 

[musterion]

If Adam would have not eaten of that tree he would have remained in innocence as well as all his descendants.

True, but then the opposite must be true as well: BECAUSE Adam ate of the tree, he did not remain in innocence but was now in sin, as are all of his descendents.

 

[everready]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

This verse should put an end to any argument.


everready

 

[musterion]

This verse should put an end to any argument.


everready

You'd think that, but it hasn't. It's been explained away...or attempted to.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The scripture substantiates that Jacob and Esau were born deep in sin as they were trying to kill each other by trying to crush each other to pieces in the womb and all references to struggles and wrestlings and jostling for space in the womb are blasphemies against the Word which is to crush to pieces.

Here is what Paul says about them before they were born:

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" (Ro.9:11).​

Please quote the verses to which you make reference.

Thanks!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This verse should put an end to any argument.

That verse contradicts the teaching of Original Sin:

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).​

People die spiritually as a result of their own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

True, but then the opposite must be true as well: BECAUSE Adam ate of the tree, he did not remain in innocence but was now in sin, as are all of his descendents.

in order to be in sin a person must first commit a sin. The direct descendants of Adam were not sinful just because their father was.

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son" (Ezek.18:20).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Wait a minute.

Paul said that JUDGMENT came upon us all by Adam's sin, resulting in our condemnation. That's two related but separate things.

Isn't that what you've spent hours telling us did NOT happen?

I explained that twice but evidently you cannot understand it. Why don't you start with what I said and try to prove that anything I said is in error?

You still haven't answered where exactly that flaw within us all comes from. You say it didn't come from God...it didn't come from Adam...that means it must be innate to us all, meaning by design it did come from God after all. What's the alternative?

I believe that Ted has already quoted this verse but I will quote it again:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

"Lust" speaks of desire and desire can be good if it is controlled within a person. But if a person does not control his free will about desire it can become a bad desire. But the desire for the opposite sex is a good thing because it is the Lord's way to populate the earth.

So the Lord made us with desire and some men exercise their free will and do not control their desire.

 

[brinny]

The proponents of 'Original Sin' assert that all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

If the teaching of 'Original Sin' is correct then we must believe that the LORD punishes men when they do the very things which He designed them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

Sir Robert Anderson writes, "This theology obviously impugns the righteousness of God in punishing men for their sins. In fact, it represents Him as a tyrant who punishes the lame for limping and the blind for losing their way" (Anderson, Misundersood Texts of the New Testament [Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1991], 75).

Original sin a "myth", eh? You are, of course entitled to your opinion. However what you are stating here is at odds with the Bible, and the Creator, the living God, El Elyon, God Most High.

He deemed it tragically necessary to provide a Savior to die, shedding His perfectly SINLESS BLOOD for our poor selves (return to dust from whence we came fallible beings), destined for the curse of death and damnation, because of sin, that ALL are born into because of the sin of Adam and Eve = "Original sin".

Yup there it is.

At least that's what the God of the Bible says.

But hey, as stated earlier, you are entitled to your opinion.

Thank you kindly.

 

[brinny]

double post-ugh!!!

 

[serpentdove]

"If the teaching of 'Original Sin' is correct then we must believe that the LORD punishes men when they do the very things which He designed them to do: "...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9). Sir Robert Anderson writes, "This theology obviously impugns the righteousness of God in punishing men for their sins. In fact, it represents Him as a tyrant who punishes the lame for limping and the blind for losing their way" (Anderson, Misundersood Texts of the New Testament [Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1991], 75)."

You were not created to sin (Is. 43:7; Rev. 4:11). :dizzy: You were created to abide in him (John 15:4, 5). Because you were born in Adam, you are born with a sin nature (Ps 51:5). lain:

...[T]hat false belief leads to portraying God as a tyrant.

How can that be in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us? :hammer: Ro 5:8 God is holy (Ps. 16:10). You are not (Jas 1:14, 15). Is there some reason you are not interested in repenting? :juggle: Still think you're a good boy? Acts 2:37, 38

Related:

Study: Liberals Have Less Self-Control Because They Dont believe they have it

 

[serpentdove]

Do you believe that people come out of the womb wholly inclined to all evil?

If you beat the odds and are perfect then you will go to heaven never having sinned (Mt 5:48). Oh wait. You called God a tyrant--ain't so perfect after all (Ps. 74:18). :sigh: Get yourself a savior (2 Cor. 5:18, 19). Jesus died for you (1 Pet. 1:18, 19).

 

[serpentdove]

Here is what Paul says about them before they were born:

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" (Ro.9:11).​

Now you know God is just (Deut. 32:4). The bad news is you were born in Adam (Ps 51:5, Rom. 5:12, 16). :sigh: The good news is you exist (Ge 9:7). lain:

 

[serpentdove]

in order to be in sin a person must first commit a sin. The direct descendants of Adam were not sinful just because their father was.

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son" (Ezek.18:20).​

All born in Adam are condemned to die (1 Cor. 15:22). Understand the spiritual consequences of the Fall of Man. "Spiritual consequences [of the Fall]: Separated from God (Eph. 4:18), Born in sin (John 3:6), Evil in heart (Matt. 15:19), Corrupt and perverse (Rom. 3:12–16), In bondage to sin (Rom. 6:19), In bondage to Satan (Heb. 2:14, 15), Dead in sin (Col. 2:13), Spiritually blind (Eph. 4:18), Utterly depraved (Titus 1:15), Change from, not in man (Jer. 2:22), Only God can change (John 3:16)." Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1996). Nelson’s quick reference topical Bible index (p. 220). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

 

[Tambora]

The wages of sin is death. (Rom 6:23)

Death comes to all men because of Adam's sin. (1 Cor 15:32 & Rom 5:14)

In that regard, there was an "original sin" that befell all men.

 

[musterion]

in order to be in sin a person must first commit a sin. The direct descendants of Adam were not sinful just because their father was.

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son" (Ezek.18:20).​

I already addressed that. No one is saying we share in Adam's guilt, or that he can be blamed for our own.

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).

"Lust" speaks of desire and desire can be good if it is controlled within a person. But if a person does not control his free will about desire it can become a bad desire.
​

Controlled how? By choosing not to act upon it?

Christ (Matt 5:28) said to even look upon a woman with lust - without ever laying a hand on her - is the same sin as fornicating with her, so the lust itself is already sin.

 

[oatmeal]

When I quote someone as you did with my OP then I address something which I quoted. So I expected you to address something you quoted which I said.

But your post did not seem to be related to anything which I said in my OP. That is all.

Ok,

Maybe the subsequent posts explain why I wrote what I wrote

It maybe somewhat tangential

There were definitely self inflicted consequences to Adam's and Eve's disobedience as Tambora pointed out in Romans 5:14

Their sin effected all subsequent generations.

By being the humans to sin, they made it easier for all to sin which all later generations had the option to do and did do.

The reason we do not live for hundreds of years like the partriarchs did is because of the negative effects of sin throughout the generations not only on our environment but on our bodies themselves.

Sin opens up our lives to Satan's influence to a greater degree than he would otherwise.

The thief comes not but for to steal and to kill and to destroy John 10:10

But God always makes a way for us to escape temptation I Corinthians 10:13