ECT The Myth of 'Original Sin'

[Jerry Shugart]

However, as you put it "I cannot see that anything you said answers my OP..."

Did I miss the question you asked or was there no question to answer?

When I quote someone as you did with my OP then I address something which I quoted. So I expected you to address something you quoted which I said.

But your post did not seem to be related to anything which I said in my OP. That is all.

 

[musterion]

Yes, but having the capacity for evil is much different that being wholly inclined to all evil.

Uhhhhhh...isn't that what I said?

We have a free will as well as a conscience that tells us what is right and wrong. At some point in time man will exercise his free will to do something which goes against his conscience.

And that ability (debility, more like it) comes from...where? God?

Adam was given a law by the Lord not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil but he exericised his free will and broke God's law.

Yes. Even though Eve gave it to him, and even though it's debatable Adam was standing by impotently as Satan deceived her, Adam evidently knew what that fruit was and ate it anyway. Hence God's anger. We have no disagreement there.

He had a propensity to sin and that propensity did not come from anyone else. Where did he get it?

You tell me.

The simple answer is that due to our free will we do not get a propensity to sin from anyone. We are just like Adam and his propensity to sin came from no one.

Paul does not appear to have referenced Adam solely in terms of death.

 

[Mocking You]

I cannot see that anything you said answers my OP which you quoted.

I agree. I cannot see anything anyone has written that refutes your OP. Are the Calvinists on TOL getting lazy?

My personal view is that when babies are born they are not sinners, but it won't be too long before they become sinners. They are under the curse of sin and will sin at some point early in their life.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul does not appear to have referenced Adam solely in terms of death.

Where did he reference Adam in terms being the source of a person's propensity to sin?

I say that no one can be blamed for man's propensity to sin, and I use Adam as an example of a man whose propensity to sin cannot be blamed on anyone.

 

[musterion]

Where did he reference Adam in terms being the source of a person's propensity to sin?

I think you've already dismissed this but not only did sin enter the world - including us - by/through one man, Adam, but condemnation also came unto us all by/through him as well (Rom 5:18). You don't want to say we get it FROM him? Fine. Paul says it comes to us BY or THROUGH him.

I say that no one can be blamed for man's propensity to sin, and I use Adam as an example of a man whose propensity to sin cannot be blamed on anyone.

Who here has tried to blame Adam? We'd be no more correct to stand before God and try to blame our sin on Adam as he was trying to blame his on Eve. But I don't know of anyone here even trying to do that. What is it with you and misrepresenting the words of people who try to discuss things with you?

 

[ttruscott]

...


So it seems to me the end result is the same whether you accept as a doctrine "original sin" or not.

...

In orthodoxy, GOD made Adam and Eve autonomous, not beholden to anyone's sin at all, in the garden. To say we were created in Adam's sin is to say HE did NOT make us autonomous when HE might have as HE did A&E, not beholden to any sin at all, but HE created us as evil, sickly and corrupt sinners in Adam's sin.

1. This blasphemes against HIS nature as loving - love does no ill. Being created as evil as a demon is an ill.

2. This blasphemes against HIS nature as holy - GOD is light and within HIM is no darkness at all and HE will not act wickedly.

3. This makes HIM the cause of our evil - yet we are condemned for that evil which blasphemes against HIS nature of being righteous - Job 34:12 "Surely, God will not act wickedly, And the Almighty will not pervert justice.

Deuteronomy 32:4 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

4. No reason is ever offered as to why HE would ever create HIS proposed Bride as evil and corrupted in mind, body and soul to fulfill HIS purposes.

5. This denies our free will and since heaven is a marriage of the Lamb with His bride, the holy Church, the church must have accepted the marriage proposal by free will or it cannot be a true marriage. Neither can those who rejected this marriage proposal be held accountable if they could not make any other decision.

Therefore this doctrine blasphemes the scripture that heaven is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

If you don't mind your theology to be based upon blasphemy, who can argue???

Peace, Ted

 

[musterion]

In orthodoxy,

Whose?

To say we were created in Adam's sin

I don't recall saying that in those words. I just quoted what Paul said: death and condemnation came to us by/through/on account of Adam. Make of that what you will.

 

[ttruscott]

We still get our propensity to sin from Adam, and nowhere else.

Does it really feel so nice to be able to off load the guilt of being a sinner onto Adam and GOD that you will believe blasphemies to do it?

Peace, Ted

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I think you've already dismissed this but not only did sin enter the world - including us - by/through one man, Adam, but condemnation also came unto us all by/through him as well (Rom 5:18). You don't want to say we get it FROM him? Fine. Paul says it comes to us BY or THROUGH him.

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).​

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil " (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

None of this speaks of man's propensity to sin coming from Adam.

 

[musterion]

Does it really feel so nice to be able to off load the guilt of being a sinner onto Adam and GOD that you will believe blasphemies to do it?

I offload nothing onto Adam. The guilt of my sin is my own.

 

[ttruscott]

Judgement for sin passed, but not the sin? Isn't this like criminal punishment was executed, absent any crime? The rest of what you said, I don't understand the rationality of it, but neither does any of this seem a big whup.

Since when has the judgement for sin passed??? If you mean that they are indeed already condemned for their sin, that is a given so where can be the problem?

NO crime??? Being a sinner is a crime in GOD's sight...what Church are you with?

Peace, Ted

 

[musterion]

Yes, condemnation came to all because of Adam's sin of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Then you're basically admitting my (Paul's) point without wanting to come out and say it.

But that says nothing about a person's propensity to sin coming from Adam.

Then that goes back to my earlier unanswered question: where does it come from? Where did Adam get it? Where do we get it?

 

[ttruscott]

Do you believe that people come out of the womb wholly inclined to all evil?

For what it is worth:

The scripture substantiates that Jacob and Esau were born deep in sin as they were trying to kill each other by trying to crush each other to pieces in the womb and all references to struggles and wrestlings and jostling for space in the womb are blasphemies against the Word which is to crush to pieces.

Peace, Ted

 

[ttruscott]

2. If we didn't get our propensity to sin from Adam, where did we get it?

From our own free will: James 1:15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death....our desire, not GOD's nor Adam's.

Peace, Ted

 

[musterion]

Jerry and Truscott,

I just noticed something, or I think I did. Both of you seem to think that our saying we got our sin by/through Adam means we also think the blame for our sin should rest on Adam, not on ourselves.

Speaking for no one else here, IF that is what you believe, it is false. I do not believe that Adam shares any blame for my sin or anyone else's. Never have, never will. Because they're not the same proposition. Getting my propensity for sin from him does not make him responsible for my sin.

Don't know if this will clarify anything but I hope it will.

 

[musterion]

From our own free will: James 1:15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death....our desire, not GOD's nor Adam's.

Did James say it ultimately arises from our own free will? No, he didn't. You added that.

Our free will may express it when we're in the flesh, but that can't answer the question of how it got in us in the first place.

It came into our race from somewhere. Your own sig says it did not come from God. Fine.

So where?

 

[ttruscott]

At risk of flaying the dead horse more, if there's no sin component, how is it to be born with a death sentence? Is not the physical component the wages of sin, as well as the spiritual? Ever heard a baby cry? That baby isn't having fun. Again, children can be little monsters, before knowing a thing about God and repentance. How so, if born in pristine holiness?

To say we did not inherit Adam's evil is NOT TO SAY that we are born in pristine holiness!!! We are born evil, by our free will...

Peace, Ted

 

[musterion]

We are born evil

Then God created us to be evil after all?

All evil is creature-created. -- ttruscot's sig

How does a newborn baby create evil?

 

[ttruscott]

How about this? God is sovereign, could declare His Son holy, fill Him with the Holy Spirit without measure, God come down from eternity to dwell in anybody, were He a child born the usual way, right? Obviously not. The Child had to be conceived by the Holy Spirit of a virgin. There was no human father component. What is this saying, about what human fathers pass on to children? As scripture states, Adam passed it on, to everybody else. What is a curse is of sin, also.

The curse of sin is death and corruption and I do not argue against that. I only argue how we came about to be sinners in HIS sight and under condemnation as the consequence of evil.

Peace, Ted

 

[musterion]

You haven't thought your position through very well have you, ttruscott.