ECT The Myth of 'Original Sin'

[ttruscott]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

1. Sin entered the world by one man, yet it first entered with the serpent coming to deceive them and with Eve when she was deceived and enticed Adaman and only third with Adam. Sin could only have entered the world with Adam if he was a sinner when he was put into his body of dust as the first person to be sown into the world.

2. Death entered with sin and death was passed to all men, not Adam's sin, but the judgment upon his sin.

3. Adam's sin was not passed to all men because they earned death in that they all sinned. That this has been interpreted as because all sinned in Adam for so long is a tribute to forcing an interpretation to prop up a faulty doctrine.

<sigh>

Peace, Ted

 

[oatmeal]

The proponents of 'Original Sin' assert that all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

If the teaching of 'Original Sin' is correct then we must believe that the LORD punishes men when they do the very things which He designed them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

Sir Robert Anderson writes, "This theology obviously impugns the righteousness of God in punishing men for their sins. In fact, it represents Him as a tyrant who punishes the lame for limping and the blind for losing their way" (Anderson, Misundersood Texts of the New Testament [Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1991], 75).

When Adam and Eve sinned, they had to leave paradise.

God rendered to them according to their deed.

They were no longer fit to abide in paradise.

Adam and Eve had dominion over the earth but their sin changed that.

When they transgressed it was high treason for they gave away that dominion to another.

Matthew 4:8-9

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Luke 4:5-7

And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

When Adam and Eve sinned they basically gave the dominion they had over to the devil.

The devil now has dominion over the systems of this world.

If it were not so, if the devil was bluffing, surely Jesus would have called his bluff.

Jesus did not correct his claim "for that is delivered unto me", but corrected him with the applicable truth.

Luke 4:8

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Matthew 4:10

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Adam and Eve's sin has negatively effected all subsequent generations

God did not do this to mankind, man did it to himself.

However Jesus Christ paid the price for their sin and all subsequent sins.

With the above information we can clearly see that "the god of this world" of II Corinthians 4:4 KJV, is referring to the Devil/Satan...

Once we understand that the god of this world, Satan, the Devil, that old serpent, the prince of the power of the air, the prince of this world is behind all the evil in the systems of this world, then many scriptures open up.

Ephesians 2:2-3
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 4:14

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Ephesians 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Colossians 1:13

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Colossians 2:15

And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Colossians 2:20-3:2

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

II Corinthians 11:20-30

II Corinthians 12:5-9

Acts 17:6

I John 4:4

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I John 2:16,3:8

and so on

 

[musterion]

What difference does it really make whether one accepts the doctrine of "original sin," however that's defined, as true? No one on this board (short of atheists and pagans) will deny that, sooner or later, everyone ends up sinning - even children - and so are condemnable by a holy God and in need of Christ. I was no older than five when I clearly recall violating my parent's will and my own conscience. That was an act of sin.

So it seems to me the end result is the same whether you accept as a doctrine "original sin" or not. And I happen to accept it, in the sense that the sinfulness of Adam has spread to all of us without exception. I don't bother trying to figure out the mechanics of that. I simply accept it as true for us all.

 

[musterion]

3. Adam's sin was not passed to all men because they earned death in that they all sinned. That this has been interpreted as because all sinned in Adam for so long is a tribute to forcing an interpretation to prop up a faulty doctrine.

<sigh>

Peace, Ted

We still get our propensity to sin from Adam, and nowhere else.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

1. Sin entered the world by one man, yet it first entered with the serpent coming to deceive them and with Eve when she was deceived and enticed Adaman and only third with Adam. Sin could only have entered the world with Adam if he was a sinner when he was put into his body of dust as the first person to be sown into the world.

2. Death entered with sin and death was passed to all men, not Adam's sin, but the judgment upon his sin.

3. Adam's sin was not passed to all men because they earned death in that they all sinned. That this has been interpreted as because all sinned in Adam for so long is a tribute to forcing an interpretation to prop up a faulty doctrine.

<sigh>

Peace, Ted

Judgement for sin passed, but not the sin? Isn't this like criminal punishment was executed, absent any crime? The rest of what you said, I don't understand the rationality of it, but neither does any of this seem a big whup.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What difference does it really make whether one accepts the doctrine of "original sin," however that's defined, as true?

It matters very much. If you will read my OP again you will see how that false belief leads to portraying God as a tyrant.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When Adam and Eve sinned, they had to leave paradise.

I cannot see that anything you said answers my OP which you quoted.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

What difference does it really make whether one accepts the doctrine of "original sin," however that's defined, as true? No one on this board (short of atheists and pagans) will deny that, sooner or later, everyone ends up sinning - even children - and so are condemnable by a holy God and in need of Christ. I was no older than five when I clearly recall violating my parent's will and my own conscience. That was an act of sin.

It is sort of a silly argument. Fact remains people are born with a death sentence, are either going to die too young to be accountable or need a Savior. Nobody escapes sin. You must be born again. That flesh is corruptible. That flesh can't inherit the kingdom. Whether you want to call the curse original sin or not, it's there from the get go. Maybe a different name would make people happy? Maybe the doctrine of born a certain unfortunate disposition? Are there people fretting their salvation over this? In any case, what happens seems pretty original, of anybody popping from the womb.

 

[musterion]

It matters very much. If you will read my OP again you will see how that false belief leads to portraying God as a tyrant.

Speaking only for myself, I believe we sin and die because Adam sinned, but I don't see Him as a tyrant at all :idunno:

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

It matters very much. If you will read my OP again you will see how that false belief leads to portraying God as a tyrant.

The very thought God is a tyrant is errant human thinking, on whatever grounds. Faith is trusting God's righteousness, which includes the absolute justice of God. Faith is trusting when you don't understand. Anybody even making judgments of God is a fool, which is not a doctrinal problem.

 

[musterion]

The very thought God is a tyrant is errant human thinking, on whatever grounds. Faith is trusting God's righteousness, which includes the absolute justice of God. Faith is trusting when you don't understand. Anybody even making judgments of God is a fool, which is not a doctrinal problem.

Well said, although false doctrine does tend to slander God, directly or indirectly, with some implying the slander very strongly (Calvinism, for example).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Speaking only for myself, I believe we sin and die because Adam sinned, but I don't see Him as a tyrant at all :idunno:

Do you believe that people come out of the womb wholly inclined to all evil?

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Well said, although false doctrine does tend to slander God, directly or indirectly, with some implying the slander very strongly (Calvinism, for example).

This is very true, what some of these things do to the minds of the unsaved tragic, reinforcing disbelief. Still, objections are often excuses for a basic disposition to simply not want to come to the light. You hear most disbelief for the doctrines involving hell. A traditional view of eternal punishment is the most common excuse I've heard. If you believe what the Bible states, this leads to claims of tyranny in many. So we come back to faith being a matter of loving and trusting God, who came to us in Jesus Christ, commending His greatest love, passion and mercy, to save us. I don't fully understand hell myself, but I do understand God is love and righteous, that He is just. My obligation is to believe in all things and not lean to my own understanding. It seems that, in the final analysis, a person has to cross that faith barrier, the problem our sin, first and foremost. What we believe about God doesn't change our guilt and need to repent.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We still get our propensity to sin from Adam, and nowhere else.

What evidence do you have for that idea?

I believe that the following explains a person's propensity to sin:

"And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man" (Mk.7:20-23).​

 

[musterion]

Do you believe that people come out of the womb wholly inclined to all evil?

Your question is a bit loaded, Jerry. I would not say "WHOLLY inclined to ALL evil," but we all definitely are born with the capacity for evil -- potentially any evil under the sun, some of which is exhibited pretty early in life. I know you won't disagree with that.

What evidence do you have for that idea?

I believe that the following explains a person's propensity to sin:

"And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man" (Mk.7:20-23).​

1. Very true. However, Christ did not preclude our sin connection to Adam there. He didn't mention it either way.

2. If we didn't get our propensity to sin from Adam, where did we get it?

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

2. If we didn't get our propensity to sin from Adam, where did we get it?

At risk of flaying the dead horse more, if there's no sin component, how is it to be born with a death sentence? Is not the physical component the wages of sin, as well as the spiritual? Ever heard a baby cry? That baby isn't having fun. Again, children can be little monsters, before knowing a thing about God and repentance. How so, if born in pristine holiness?

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

How about this? God is sovereign, could declare His Son holy, fill Him with the Holy Spirit without measure, God come down from eternity to dwell in anybody, were He a child born the usual way, right? Obviously not. The Child had to be conceived by the Holy Spirit of a virgin. There was no human father component. What is this saying, about what human fathers pass on to children? As scripture states, Adam passed it on, to everybody else. What is a curse is of sin, also.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

At risk of flaying the dead horse more, if there's no sin component, how is it to be born with a death sentence?

The death sentence is explained in the following way by the words of the Lord:

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).​

From the beginning man needed to eat of the tree of life in order to live forever. Then people were denied access to the tree of life so that served as a death sentence for all.

However, that death sentence is not a result of people's sins today. It came because Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

So nothing about this has anything to do with the false idea of "Original Sin," the idea that the sin of Adam and the guilt of that sin has been imputed to all of Adam's descendants.

 

[oatmeal]

I cannot see that anything you said answers my OP which you quoted.

I can agree with that.

However, as you put it "I cannot see that anything you said answers my OP..."

Did I miss the question you asked or was there no question to answer?

If you ask no question, why are you surprised that you do not get an answer relevant to your post?

There is a first sin that humans made, if a person wishes to call that first sin or original sin or some other synonym, as long as it communicates I am not sure it matters.

My post makes it clear that there were serious consequences to Adam's and Eve's disobedience.

Consequences that could not and were not paid for until Jesus Christ paid for them. Jesus Christ's ministry did not stop with his being seated in the heavenlies. He is busy being the head of the body and will after I Thessalonians 4:13-18 finish what he started.

He finish to do the will of the Father to make things right

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your question is a bit loaded, Jerry. I would not say "WHOLLY inclined to ALL evil," but we all definitely are born with the capacity for evil -- potentially any evil under the sun, some of which is exhibited

Yes, but having the capacity for evil is much different that being wholly inclined to all evil.

If we didn't get our propensity to sin from Adam, where did we get it?

We have a free will as well as a conscience that tells us what is right and wrong. At some point in time man will exercise his free will to do something which goes against his conscience.

Adam was given a law by the Lord not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil but he exericised his free will and broke God's law.

He had a propensity to sin and that propensity did not come from anyone else. Where did he get it?

The simple answer is that due to our free will we do not get a propensity to sin from anyone. We are just like Adam and his propensity to sin came from no one.