The Case Against Universal Healthcare

The Case Against Universal Healthcare


  • Total voters
    47

PureX

Well-known member
thanks for supporting universal health care
it is hard to argue against you

do you understand why we don't have it?

I do
Yes, our legislature has been completely corrupted by the legalized bribery of corporate lobbyists. And the industries involved in health care do not want reform, because they are all price-gouging us and taking in massive profits from it.

Until we put a stop to this legalized bribery we will never get meaningful health care reform. Obama had a 'supermajority' when he tried and he still couldn't get it done. The ACA is just an ad-hoc band-aid. It was all he could get.
 

lovemeorhateme

Well-known member
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.





Those who can not afford an extra car (a donkey) a male servant (bulter) female servant (maid) should not have one?

I think TCM put it very well:

However the law defines personal property and corporate responsibility.

If the law says pay tax, then its no longer your property, and the bible very clear on tax.

If someone decide that you should pay for there healthcare without legal authority to do so that is coveting.

If the legal situation is one that says as a society we are going to pay for our healthcare together by tax, no one has coveted anything.

The question is Nick, why would you object to helping those in need unless it was because you were coveting more money?
 

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
I think the idea of it.

Us Brits were so bemused by the American Right throthing at the mouth over this idea we wanted to know why.

We have a universal system that we love in principle, and cope with in reality, we just could not understand the hostility towards it.

You cannot really understand that the USA is not like the UK.
 

lovemeorhateme

Well-known member
You cannot really understand that the USA is not like the UK.

I think we all know that. As I've pointed out numerous times, with very few exceptions it's almost exclusively Christians in the USA would say that a system of universal healthcare is sinful. That vast majority of Christians outside the USA in the UK and Europe amongst other countries would say it's a Christian duty to support such a system, not a sin.

Many laws are different, our political systems are different. But one thing is the same - the need for the poor and disadvantaged to have access to healthcare. I believe that need should be addressed.
 

Tinark

Active member
We are to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Would you go hungry if you didn't have too? Would you shorts in the winter if you didn't have tow? Loving our neighbor means that we view their needs as being equally important to our own. Sometimes that might mean that when we go out to by our $50,000 dollar dream car, instead we by two $25,000 average cars and give one to the neighbor down the street who truly needs a reliable car. Not coveting our neighbors stuff does not relieve us from Christ's command of loving and helping our neighbors in need.

If you don't believe this nick, I suggest that you get saved.

Not only that, but taxes owed to the government belong to the government.

Jesus said:
Render unto Ceasar the things that are Caesar's.

Therefore, the whole "thou shall not covet...anything that is your neighbor's" is bogus as it's based on a false premise.
 

Tinark

Active member
I think we all know that. As I've pointed out numerous times, with very few exceptions it's almost exclusively Christians in the USA would say that a system of universal healthcare is sinful. That vast majority of Christians outside the USA in the UK and Europe amongst other countries would say it's a Christian duty to support such a system, not a sin.

Many laws are different, our political systems are different. But one thing is the same - the need for the poor and disadvantaged to have access to healthcare. I believe that need should be addressed.

Religion and God in a nutshell: My God/religion has exactly the same opinions as I do. When it doesn't, I leave the church I am at and find one that does.

This is just another example of the relative morality Christians and all people in general engage in.
 

Tinark

Active member

This Charming Manc

Well-known member
I'm trying to understand why people react so emotionally and violently to something, which is so normal to me.

My wife is American and she has pretty much bought into the NHS lock stock and barrel after experiencing it.

You cannot really understand that the USA is not like the UK.
 

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Indeed it isn't as evidenced by our healthcare costs being nearly twice as high on a per person basis compared to the first world country average and yet millions lack coverage and ~84,000 additional people die each year from treatable conditions.

Yes, that is a big part on the problem.

Did you watch the national news tonight? The Fed is not raising interest rates.

What does this mean? The market will rise.
Then they showed the difference between womens' and mens' savings. Men are more likely to invest in the market, while women feel it more safe to jeep money in CDs, and bank accounts. They said men have an average savings of around $65,000, while women have a savings of $45,000.

Think how this all is relevant to the American conscience?

Do you see how this is relevant?

Hint: If you own a home outright and have a late model car, are age 65, have a savings of 100 grand, you will be in the 'poorhouse' if you live to be 80. *(under current conditions)
 

Tinark

Active member
Here's another way we could fund universal healthcare - remove these tax handouts that primarily benefit the wealthy:

“Every year, the federal government spends billions of dollars on these tax programs primarily to support the highest-income households that need support the least,” said Ezra Levin, associate director of government affairs for the group, which is based in Washington.

Relentless pressure in recent years, particularly by conservatives, to reduce program spending has meant that the tax code has increasingly become the primary driver of social policy when it comes to education, retirement and housing.

The amount of spending in those areas channeled through taxes is on the rise, topping $620 billion in 2014, up from $540 billion in 2013, according to Mr. Levin’s analysis. By comparison, federal discretionary spending by 14 of the 15 cabinet agencies, including housing, transportation, labor, commerce, education, Treasury and health and human services totaled $464 billion.

“This is not a liberal position or a conservative position,” he said.

Those at the tippy-top of the income scale — the top 0.1 percent, with an average annual income of $7.6 million — received an average of $33,391 in federal tax payouts analyzed by the group. Those in the bottom 60 percent, who earn less than $65,000, got less than $1,000 on average, altogether about 12 percent of the billions handed out.

A 2013 report from the Congressional Budget Office that looked at the 10 largest tax subsidies, worth a total of $900 billion, found that more than half went to households in the top fifth on the income scale.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/18/b...o-give-back-mostly-to-the-very-rich.html?_r=1
 

PureX

Well-known member
Religion and God in a nutshell: My God/religion has exactly the same opinions as I do. When it doesn't, I leave the church I am at and find one that does.

This is just another example of the relative morality Christians and all people in general engage in.
It's the same attitude about news in the U.S.,. If the talking head on the TV in front of us doesn't tell us what we want to hear, then we'll change channels until we find one that does. As a result, all we have are a plethora of talking heads pretending to be presenting the news, but in reality are just presenting biased nonsense, hoping to capture viewers. And now we have all these Americans all convinced that they're right while they have no real idea what's even going on.
 

rexlunae

New member
you have to address these issues

how to control the cost

All of the countries with Universal Health Care have done a better job with this than we have. I think it's more a question for the people opposed to UHC than for anyone else.

how to encourage technical advancements
how to encourage research

More or less the way we do now. Companies invent new therapies. They get patents. They get paid for the use of their technology.

The thing that really changes is that the government would have a fair bit of power deciding whose technology we actually use.

how to encourage healthy lifestyles

I don't know what impression you're under, but I don't think people value their health because they are worried about the cost down the road.

how to ensure good service

What, like a mint on your pillow?

I guess that isn't a priority for me.

how to get rid of the insurance companies

With fire?

they won't go away without a fight
and
they have the money for it

Vote Democrat? ;)

The only thing that potentially could stand up to the corrupting influence of money in American politics, real political will. Which is probably why we're doomed. But I really am an optimist.

maybe we need at least one country without universal health care to ensure technical advancements

In other words, there should be one place in the world where health care is a business and peoples' lives and their health are used as bargaining chips to extract money from them for medical research...for the good of the whole world.

I nominate not my country. And I couldn't in good conscience suggest that anyone else do otherwise.
 

Tyrathca

New member
Is this going to be your tactic again? Make irrational accusations over "implications" and then run away when called on it?
:idunno:
I'm not sure what you're referring to, I don't feel I've run away from any conversations with you in recent memory. At most I've been rather quiet on this forum due to real life lately. Furthermore I feel I've given some decent answers to why we shouldn't try full privatization, answers which I don't think anyone had already tried to rebut yet.

Is this going to be YOUR tactic again? Talk about anything other than someone's main points?
 

rexlunae

New member
I think we all know that. As I've pointed out numerous times, with very few exceptions it's almost exclusively Christians in the USA would say that a system of universal healthcare is sinful. That vast majority of Christians outside the USA in the UK and Europe amongst other countries would say it's a Christian duty to support such a system, not a sin.

Because (much of) Christianity in the US is fused with right-wing reactionary political ideology, which is fully-invested in anti-government ideology. If you think the government can do anything worthwhile at all, you are suspected of being some kind of communist, or at least a socialist, and probably not a real Christian. In the forms of Christianity that dominate parts of the American politics, there is no such concept as a duty, because that sounds like government making you do things you don't want to do, like pay your taxes, or drink from the same water fountain as a black person.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Not coveting our neighbors stuff does not relieve us from Christ's command of loving and helping our neighbors in need.
Tell me, does the command for not coveting our neighbor's stuff also apply to the government and not the individual, or is it only the command to love and help our neighbors in need that applies to the government and not the individual?
 

jgarden

BANNED
Banned
A welfare state isn't helping anybody.
Child Poverty: by nation

DEFINITION: Group-specific poverty rates are headcounts of how many people of a population group fall below the poverty line, in percentage of the total number in that population group. The poverty line used here is 50% of the median household disposable income, adjusted for household size. Children are persons with less than 18 years of age;

# - COUNTRY - AMOUNT - DATE
*****************************

1 Turkey 24.59% 2009
2 Mexico 22.16% 2009
3 Poland 21.5% 2009
4 United States 20.59% 2009
5 Spain 17.3% 2009
6 Portugal 16.55% 2009
7 Ireland 16.3% 2009
8 Germany 16.29% 2009
9 Italy 15.5% 2009
10 Canada 15.06% 2009
11 New Zealand 15% 2009

Group of 7 countries (G7) average (profile) 14.12% 2009

12 Japan 13.69% 2009
13 Greece 13.23% 2009
14 Luxembourg 12.39% 2009
15 Australia 11.79% 2009

High income OECD countries average (profile) 11.67% 2009

16 Netherlands 11.53% 2009
17 Slovakia 10.93% 2009
18 Czech Republic 10.27% 2009
19 South Korea 10.2% 2009
20 United Kingdom 10.08% 2009
21 Belgium 9.97% 2009
22 Switzerland 9.43% 2009
23 Hungary 8.72% 2009
24 Iceland 8.25% 2009
25 France 7.64% 2009
26 Austria 6.17% 2009
27 Norway 4.6% 2009
28 Finland 4.17% 2009
29 Sweden 3.97% 2009
30 Denmark 2.74% 2009

http://www.nationmaster.com/country...usehold-characteristics/Poverty-rate/Children
"Socialist" nations are not only among the safest places to live in the world, they also have the lowest rates of child poverty.

Given that conservatives are always quick to express their concerns about the rights of the fetus in the womb, they are strangely quiet when it comes to the 20.59% of American children whose mothers actually followed their advice - and now find themselves caught in a cycle of poverty.
 

jgarden

BANNED
Banned
Tell me, does the command for not coveting our neighbor's stuff also apply to the government and not the individual, or is it only the command to love and help our neighbors in need that applies to the government and not the individual?
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
- John Kenneth Galbraith
 
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