The Case Against Universal Healthcare

[chrysostom]

(This isn't necessary at the local level. There we just need to mind the issues and the people in charge, and respond accordingly.)

exactly
so
why not do health care at the local level
and
which party is more likely to allow control at the local level?

right again

the republican party

 

[PureX]

They have a monopoly on these.

No WE have a monopoly on those. Because WE are the government.

And you're ignoring the fact that they are both less expensive and more effective than private health care coverage.

Our prison system is horrendous. I used to work in it.

Our prisons are working exactly as we want them to. If they are "horrendous", it's because that's what the American public want them to be. We Americans love punishment. The more severe, the better we like it. In fact we approve of "horrendous" punishment. Most of us approve of prisoners killing and gang-raping each other, regardless of their crimes.

It's sad, but it's true. We have become this ugly and uncaring toward each other. And we are this obsessed with the idea of 'righteous violence'.

Private education way outperforms public.

No, it doesn't. You only think it does because private schools get to select their students according to family income. Which as we all know has a huge effect on their performance.

When privately owned and operated schools have to serve all students, of all economic backgrounds, they fail miserably. Because they have to operate according to the prime directive of profit/loss over and above the prime directive of educating children regardless of their ability to pay. The few private companies that tried to provide open public education have failed. And now they no longer want to try.

Most often done with private contractors. (Medicaid/Medicare)

Actually, all the government outsourcing of health insurance has achieved was a massive increase in complexity and confusion, and a general increase in the cost of administration and medical services.

Are they failing now? (public utilities)

No, many of them are now severely price-gouging us, however. That's what private individuals do when they can buy government created and mandated monopolies. They use them to price-gouge everyone else for all they can get.

 

[PureX]

exactly
so
why not do health care at the local level
and
which party is more likely to allow control at the local level?

right again

the republican party

You're an idiot.

 

[Tinark]

do you think the insurance companies are going away without a fight?

A large part of the battle was already won when medicare was enacted. The mistake was putting an age requirement on the program.

 

[Tinark]

This is a perversion of charity. Systemizing charity makes it an obligation. An obligation is not charity. By installing universal healthcare, people are trained to believe that charity has all been paid for; that it is someone else's job.

Universal healthcare helps destroy society.

Is Medicare destroying our society? Where is your evidence that this 50 year program has contributed to the US' destruction?

 

[Tinark]

Seriously, someone name the businesses and programs that the government in America runs better than the private sector. . .

This was already addressed previously - we aren't talking about the government _running_ the hospitals, clinics, drug companies, medical device companies, etc. We are talking about them paying the bills for people who receive medical services and drugs, and even then, the amount they pay won't be unlimited - it will be enough to provide a minimum level of acceptable care for everyone (Medicare is a good proxy for this - I would support simply removing the age restriction on it in combination with repealing Obamacare as that would be obsolete - no major new complicated overhaul is required). For people who want more than this minimum level provides can add their own out of pocket or supplemental coverage on top of it.

 

[shagster01]

This was already addressed previously - we aren't talking about the government _running_ the hospitals, clinics, drug companies, medical device companies, etc. We are talking about them paying the bills for people who receive medical services and drugs, and even then, the amount they pay won't be unlimited - it will be enough to provide a minimum level of acceptable care for everyone (Medicare is a good proxy for this - I would support simply removing the age restriction on it in combination with repealing Obamacare as that would be obsolete - no major new complicated overhaul is required). For people who want more than this minimum level provides can add their own out of pocket or supplemental coverage on top of it.

Then show me how good the US is at paying their bills.

That is one huge problem with medicare. It takes forever to get paid.

 

[Tinark]

Then show me how good the US is at paying their bills.

That is one huge problem with medicare. It takes forever to get paid.

That is a low complexity problem to solve. Just because it is currently a problem doesn't make it impossible to solve. The solution is simple - implement a maximum number of days requirement to pay the bills (30 days, for example) or the hospitals and clinics are allowed to charge a 2% late payment penalty per month (or something like that).

 

[Stripe]

Is Medicare destroying our society? Where is your evidence that this 50 year program has contributed to the US' destruction?

Evolutionists hate reading.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Medicaid/Medicare.
Social Security
Military Defense
Public Welfare
Prison System
Public Education
Public Health and Safety
Court System
and most Public Utilities

You just listed the worst things ever implemented by the Federal Government of the United States of America.

Now try to find anything that it got right.

 

[shagster01]

That is a low complexity problem to solve. Just because it is currently a problem doesn't make it impossible to solve. The solution is simple - implement a maximum number of days requirement to pay the bills (30 days, for example) or the hospitals and clinics are allowed to charge a 2% late payment penalty per month (or something like that).

So your easy fix is charging the tax payers interest on top of paying other people's health care?

Great.

 

[Stripe]

You just listed the worst things ever implemented by the Federal Government of the United States of America.

Now try to find anything that it got right.

To be fair, the military and courts are the only two things on that list that a government should be running. If they stopped trying to do everything, they might have a shot at getting their necessary functions right.

 

[genuineoriginal]

To be fair, the military and courts are the only two things on that list that a government should be running.

The current implementation of both the military and the courts does not match the way the writers of the constitution set them up.

If they stopped trying to do everything, they might have a shot at getting their necessary functions right.

True.

 

[Tinark]

Evolutionists hate reading.

Are you unable to analyze the implications of your "logic", and unable to answer questions? Medicare is universal healthcare for everyone aged 65+. Is it destroying US society? If not, how much further can the age be lowered until it leads to society's destruction? Where is your evidence that all developed countries are currently being destroyed?

 

[Tinark]

So your easy fix is charging the tax payers interest on top of paying other people's health care?

Great.

Taxpayers won't be charged if the payments are made on time - that's the point.

If the federal government can manage to pay federal employees in a timely manner, there's no reason it can't pay medical bills on time as every other country somehow manages to do without too much fuss.

 

[shagster01]

Taxpayers won't be charged if the payments are made on time - that's the point.

If the federal government can manage to pay federal employees in a timely manner, there's no reason it can't pay medical bills on time as every other country somehow manages to do without too much fuss.

I remember a bunch of federal employees not getting paid at all a few years back.... :think:

 

[rocketman]

Nobody "owes" anyone anything.

Bingo!

It's about making society better.

In your worldview I guess that would be correct,not in mine and many other Americans it seems, if you are not happy with the U.S. form of liberty from government then maybe you should become a citizen in a socialist country or maybe the UK where they offer socialist style healthcare. Why are you whining so hard about changing the U.S. when you can just relocate to utopia?

Good health and less misery and suffering for all is something any good society should try to achieve, and we all have to work on it together.

We do provide for all these things at least those of us that pay taxes here. If you are looking for someone to take care of you from cradle to grave than you need to find a country that holds that ideology...Americans don't, by a wide margin also.

Back in the the jungle days where it was every man for himself, ~20% of everyone died a violent death.

Back in the jungle days? You have stats for this made up place? And believe it or not when it all boils down it is still very much an "every man for himself" world out there...don't kid yourself.

You are welcome to pack up your bags and leave civilization, free of the knowledge that you'll never have to "owe" anyone everything.

And as I said you are free to do the same, this country is established if you want something it does not have, or may not want, pack it in...get out...

However, the civilized people realized that we can achieve better outcomes if we have more compassion and cooperate to take care of everyone.

If the left was not so determined to undermine societies cornerstones mainly "the family" which they have done a great job at destroying, this used to be how civilized society took care of one another not expanding government reliance at the cost of liberty. You are obviously very young, naive, and gullible to put your trust in government.

Yours is an archaic early 20th century viewpoint. The rest of the world has moved on, and only a group of very peculiar conservatives in the United States are willing to pay double on a per person basis for healthcare and deal with all the BS that comes with the billing system for greater misery and suffering to more people, all so that they don't have to "owe" anyone anything.

Hey newsflash genius, healthcare was not that expensive before your idiot king Obama decided to float you and the rest of the takers (illegals included) a freebie at taxpayers expense. There were many ways to fix the healthcare price & accessibility in this country but, your man decided to ram this turd (Obamacare) right down everyones throat and now nobody can afford it. The majority of Americans see the need to overhaul healthcare, on this I will agree but, you will never find consensus in this country for a NHS...that is something you will just have to deal with.

 

[Tyrathca]

In your worldview I guess that would be correct,not in mine and many other Americans it seems, if you are not happy with the U.S. form of liberty from government then maybe you should become a citizen in a socialist country or maybe the UK where they offer socialist style healthcare.

How is corporate run healthcare a "U.S. form of liberty from government"?

Why are you whining so hard about changing the U.S. when you can just relocate to utopia?

I don't think anyone here has been advocating that universal healthcare was perfect, let alone create a utopia. What people have been saying is that it is better than the faux-free market corporate system you favour.

We do provide for all these things at least those of us that pay taxes here.

And because of this you also pay much more per person for that healthcare. Kind of like cutting of your nose to spite your face.

"We might be paying more but at least we don't give healthcare to those sub-human 'poor people'!... "

If you are looking for someone to take care of you from cradle to grave than you need to find a country that holds that ideology...Americans don't, by a wide margin also.

And I'm sure if Americans voted the other way on this issue you would accept that without complaint.... :angel:

Back in the jungle days? You have stats for this made up place? And believe it or not when it all boils down it is still very much an "every man for himself" world out there...don't kid yourself.

I think they are referring to pre-historic era where death rates were about this rate if not higher in some places/periods. :idunno:

If the left was not so determined to undermine societies cornerstones mainly "the family" which they have done a great job at destroying, this used to be how civilized society took care of one another not expanding government reliance at the cost of liberty. You are obviously very young, naive, and gullible to put your trust in government.

Irrelevant and an evidence free view of history anyway (through rose-coloured glasses it seems too)

Hey newsflash genius, healthcare was not that expensive before your idiot king Obama decided to float you and the rest of the takers (illegals included) a freebie at taxpayers expense.

Uhhhh... no, US healthcare has been consistently costing more per capita than many other western countries with equal if not better healthcare systems for at least the last 10 years (probably longer but that's how long I've been seeing the recurrent statistics)

Not that I think Obamacare is a good solution (It is a bastardization of the concept of universal healthcare and bears little resemblance to what works internationally)

 

[Stripe]

Are you unable to analyze the implications of your "logic."

What effect would any "implications" have on the truth of what I said?

Medicare is universal healthcare for everyone aged 65+.

Thanks for moving the goalposts. :thumb:

Is it destroying US society?

Evolutionists hate reading. They will do anything to avoid it.

Where is your evidence that all developed countries are currently being destroyed?

Again? :AMR:

 

[Stripe]

Universal healthcare ... is better than ... [a] market corporate system.

How would you know? There is no nation that has healthcare without government interference.

The evidence we do have shows that greater government involvement creates more problems. The fact is that government involvement necessarily makes healthcare more expensive.