The Case Against Universal Healthcare

[resodko]

i wanna be a surgeon when i grow up! :banana:


:think:


or an owner of a surgical center! :banana::banana:

 

[rocketman]

Let's make a deal. No government run health care while they can't even properly set up government officials with government email accounts. When they show some sort of competence in managing things we can revisit the conversation.

Here! Here! this government is run amuck, they have ripped off social security & medicare since it's inception what makes anyone with think that a NHS system will be any different? I mean really does not any American in this thread have any math or logic skills? We could make a proof of this...

1) Given that we have seen this government steal money from Social security since it was formed, almost to the point of insolvency.

and

2) Given we have also seen the corruption, mismanagement, fraud, & theft from our current government health care system medicare.

Therefore we can deduce that the government is not to be trusted running social programs or handling the money of the people to run social programs.

Seems fairly simple to me...maybe the Brits just have a more trustworthy government than the crop of clowns running ours.

 

[rocketman]

Case Against Universal Healthcare

post office
amtrak
dmv
irs
veterans hospitals
public schools

You forgot the biggies chrys...Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, Food Stamps...heck most of the social programs in this country are riddled with corruption, mismanagement, fraud, waste, & abuse.

 

[rocketman]

I'me sorry for the offense, chrys, but you're far too ignorant on this subject (as with many others) to bother with. Nothing I post will make a dent in that ignorance, and so I'm not going to waste the time. The fact that you asked this particular question in the face of the overall issue of Health care in the U.S. only exemplifies this.

Ahhh go ahead Purex, no thread on social programs has even broached ignorance till you post. Please enlighten us with your Marxist spin on the subject.

 

[Tinark]

Here! Here! this government is run amuck, they have ripped off social security & medicare since it's inception what makes anyone with think that a NHS system will be any different? I mean really does not any American in this thread have any math or logic skills? We could make a proof of this...

1) Given that we have seen this government steal money from Social security since it was formed, almost to the point of insolvency.

and

2) Given we have also seen the corruption, mismanagement, fraud, & theft from our current government health care system medicare.

Therefore we can deduce that the government is not to be trusted running social programs or handling the money of the people to run social programs.

Seems fairly simple to me...maybe the Brits just have a more trustworthy government than the crop of clowns running ours.

Maybe we should revoke the declaration of independence and amend the constitution and let the Brits take over the running of our government for a bit, until we are ready to get past the childish incompetent phase of our own governance.

 

[rocketman]

Maybe we should revoke the declaration of independence and amend the constitution and let the Brits take over the running of our government for a bit, until we are ready to get past the childish incompetent phase of our own governance.

Or maybe just do as our founders implied in the constitution and take some personal responsibility, this government was not set up to be your nanny nor are your countryman. That is the problem with you socialist types...you want everything handed to you. Why do you feel your fellow citizens owe you something? I don't get it...I am not trying to be pejorative, that is a serious question, in fact that is the only real question to be asked here...Does the government i.e.. do the people of this country owe you something? and what is it that they owe you?

 

[Tinark]

Or maybe just do as our founders implied in the constitution and take some personal responsibility, this government was not set up to be your nanny nor are your countryman. That is the problem with you socialist types...you want everything handed to you. Why do you feel your fellow citizens owe you something? I don't get it...I am not trying to be pejorative, that is a serious question, in fact that is the only real question to be asked here...Does the government i.e.. do the people of this country owe you something? and what is it that they owe you?

Nobody "owes" anyone anything. It's about making society better. Good health and less misery and suffering for all is something any good society should try to achieve, and we all have to work on it together. Back in the the jungle days where it was every man for himself, ~20% of everyone died a violent death. You are welcome to pack up your bags and leave civilization, free of the knowledge that you'll never have to "owe" anyone everything. However, the civilized people realized that we can achieve better outcomes if we have more compassion and cooperate to take care of everyone.

Yours is an archaic early 20th century viewpoint. The rest of the world has moved on, and only a group of very peculiar conservatives in the United States are willing to pay double on a per person basis for healthcare and deal with all the BS that comes with the billing system for greater misery and suffering to more people, all so that they don't have to "owe" anyone anything.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Here! Here! this government is run amuck, they have ripped off social security & medicare since it's inception what makes anyone with think that a NHS system will be any different? I mean really does not any American in this thread have any math or logic skills? We could make a proof of this...

1) Given that we have seen this government steal money from Social security since it was formed, almost to the point of insolvency.

and

2) Given we have also seen the corruption, mismanagement, fraud, & theft from our current government health care system medicare.

Therefore we can deduce that the government is not to be trusted running social programs or handling the money of the people to run social programs.

Seems fairly simple to me...maybe the Brits just have a more trustworthy government than the crop of clowns running ours.

Well, speaking as a Brit I can personally tell you that I consider our own government to be as trustworthy as Norman Bates running a motel.

I'm unashamedly cynical in regards to political parties in general - and this current joke of a conservative/liberal coalition (it's different over here than in America) is appalling frankly. I realize you may not agree with a safety net where it comes to welfare/benefits but the targeting of the most vulnerable in society by the current administration is sickening IMO. People who have been on long term disability living allowance and similar being forced off such and threatened with no income unless they find work or 'jump through the right hoops' is just a cynical exercise in exploiting those who have no means to respond.

In the meantime corporate fat cats and executives in utility companies are paid an arm and a leg for boosting prices and earn more than the PM himself, by quite a large margin. Let's not even go to certain 'celebrities' and the wages they're on. Am I right in thinking 'Judge Judy' has a new contract for 40 something million dollars for her poxy show? So, for all its faults and needs for improvement I'd still a national healthcare system was available to all in need.

 

[Stripe]

Everyone should take care of their own, on that we agree. But sometimes others fall ill and need help. We can let them suffer and do nothing, or we can set up a system which helps to prevent that suffering and ensure everyone, regardless of age or income can receive the health treatment they need. Which is more compassionate?

This is a perversion of charity. Systemizing charity makes it an obligation. An obligation is not charity. By installing universal healthcare, people are trained to believe that charity has all been paid for; that it is someone else's job.

Universal healthcare helps destroy society.

 

[Stripe]

We can let them suffer and do nothing, or we can set up a system which helps to prevent that suffering and ensure everyone, regardless of age or income can receive the health treatment they need. Which is more compassionate?

This is called a false dichotomy; it is not the case that it has to be one or the other.

 

[Tyrathca]

Here! Here! this government is run amuck, they have ripped off social security & medicare since it's inception what makes anyone with think that a NHS system will be any different? I mean really does not any American in this thread have any math or logic skills? We could make a proof of this...

1) Given that we have seen this government steal money from Social security since it was formed, almost to the point of insolvency.

and

2) Given we have also seen the corruption, mismanagement, fraud, & theft from our current government health care system medicare.

Therefore we can deduce that the government is not to be trusted running social programs or handling the money of the people to run social programs.

Seems fairly simple to me...maybe the Brits just have a more trustworthy government than the crop of clowns running ours.

Not just the Brits, much of the Western world really. Your arguments here only make sense if you assume Americans are innately worse at governing themselves and organising their government (in which case you have bigger problems such as fundamentally restructuring how you elect your politicians). It also only works if you assume that corporations are somehow going to be less corrupt and prone to "theft", which is also rather doubtful.

 

[Arthur Brain]

This is a perversion of charity. Systemizing charity makes it an obligation. An obligation is not charity. By installing universal healthcare, people are trained to believe that charity has all been paid for; that it is someone else's job.

Universal healthcare helps destroy society.

Er, no it doesn't, it ensures that those who need care receive it and you're just talking sound bite nonsense - again.

lain:

 

[chrysostom]

To be fair PureX has a point, there is about as much point trying to engage is in depth debate with you as there is beating your head against a wall. I've never known you to actually use evidence and defend it, at best you'll through up some question and then fall back on sound bites and ideology. Maybe this is the time you'll engage in something more but I wouldn't hold my breathe and I don't think its unreasonable to not expect others to either.

Can you at least show that you understand what you are citing and explain its implications before expecting others to likely waste their time addressing it? What you have said so far is rather vague.

do you need evidence that the veterans administration is corrupt?

do you need evidence that the irs was used to go after the tea party?

do you need evidence that our public schools are not doing so well?

you just have to mention the names

post office
amtrak

and that is all the evidence most people need

 

[chrysostom]

we are not going to get universal health care for one reason

insurance companies

they are in control
and
there is nothing you can do about it
except
debate the issue
so
why not debate the real issue?

how to get rid of the insurance companies

 

[PureX]

we are not going to get universal health care for one reason

insurance companies

they are in control
and
there is nothing you can do about it
except
debate the issue
so
why not debate the real issue?

how to get rid of the insurance companies

A single-payer, universal health care system.

But you don't really even know what that is, do you.

 

[chrysostom]

A single-payer, universal health care system.

But you don't really even know what that is, do you.

do you think the insurance companies are going away without a fight?

 

[PureX]

do you think the insurance companies are going away without a fight?

Certainly not while you continue to vote for your republican corporate toadies. And not while I continue to vote for democratic corporate toadies, either.

The only way to get control of our government back short of rioting in the streets is to vote out ALL incumbents, EVERY TIME, regardless of party, until we get someone in there who'll fight for campaign finance reform, and for an end to the legalized bribery of the legislature by corporate sponsored lobbyists. And once we get someone who will fight for us, regardless of party, we need to keep voting them back in, and supporting them in any way we can.

(This isn't necessary at the local level. There we just need to mind the issues and the people in charge, and respond accordingly.)

As long as we keep re-electing executors and legislators at the state and federal levels that ignore the electorate in favor of their corporate sponsors and lobbyists we will never have control of our own government, and the corruption by wealth will continue to rule us, and make our every day lives more and more miserable.

 

[shagster01]

Seriously, someone name the businesses and programs that the government in America runs better than the private sector. . .

 

[PureX]

Seriously, someone name the businesses and programs that the government in America runs better than the private sector. . .

Medicaid/Medicare.
Social Security
Military Defense
Public Welfare
Prison System
Public Education
Public Health and Safety
Court System
and most Public Utilities before they were privatized.

Many of these agencies and systems cannot be turned over to private companies because they are not-for-profit enterprises, and because inherent private sector greed is simply not compatible with their purpose.

Our problem is not big government, it's government corruption by wealthy special interests. And they are the ones telling you over and over and over and over and over and over and over that the problem is big government.

And you are a fool for believing them.

 

[shagster01]

Medicaid/Medicare.
Military Defense
Public Welfare
Court system

They have a monopoly on these.

Prison System

Our prison system is horrendous. I used to work in it.

Public Education

Wrong. Private education way outperforms public.

Public Health and Safety

Most often done with private contractors.

and most Public Utilities before they were privatized.

Are they failing now?