The Case Against Universal Healthcare

[chrysostom]

I am for universal health care
but
you have to address these issues

how to control the cost
how to encourage technical advancements
how to encourage research
how to encourage healthy lifestyles
how to ensure good service

how to get rid of the insurance companies

they won't go away without a fight
and
they have the money for it


maybe we need at least one country without universal health care to ensure technical advancements

 

[PureX]

I am for universal health care
but
you have to address these issues

how to control the cost
how to encourage technical advancements
how to encourage research
how to ensure good service

If you had bothered to watch the documentary I posted the link to, you would have seen that all these issues have been solved long ago by the other modern, wealthy nations of the word. I'm happy that you're in favor of a national health care system, but you make Americans look like idiots when you don't even recognize the fact that all those other nations have already done it.

how to get rid of the insurance companies

they won't go away without a fight
and
they have the money for it

It's not necessary to get rid of them. Many nations with national heath care have not eliminated private health insurance. It is necessary to stop their price-gouging, however. And most other nations do that by setting price caps.

But in the U.S. everyone involved in health care are price-gouging us every step of the way. Aspirin pills that cost $35 each, little plastic widgets that cost pennies to manufacture cost us $75 each. Scans that cost $50 in other countries cost us $700, here. Doctors that spend 3 minutes looking at those scans charge $100 a minute.

Everyone involved in health care (but the actual workers, themselves) is price-gouging us by a huge margin because they know we have to 'buy, or die'. And they all blame their price-gouging on each other.

So really we only have two issues to solve: we have to stop the price-gouging, and we need to provide care to everyone, regardless of their income. Since we are now paying nearly twice what every nation with universal health care is paying, the cost of covering everyone is easily offset by limiting the current price-gouging. And we'd still be saving ourselves a lot of money.

But to do this we have to face the problem of our own greed, and recognize that it is literally killing us.

 

[This Charming Manc]

All government involvement = bad, all corporate capitalism = good
is a silly position to take and the essence of what you are arguing.

The concept of the free market perfection don't work (anywhere?) in a marketplace where the the choice is purchase or die.

Then US system is a lot more free market than the UK and its works a lot less efficiently in value per spend.

How would you know? There is no nation that has healthcare without government interference.

The evidence we do have shows that greater government involvement creates more problems. The fact is that government involvement necessarily makes healthcare more expensive.

 

[Tyrathca]

How would you know? There is no nation that has healthcare without government interference.

The evidence we do have shows that greater government involvement creates more problems. The fact is that government involvement necessarily makes healthcare more expensive.

We have no such evidence of what you claim.

What we know it's that healthcare has many characteristics which make it a poor product/service to apply market forces to. Characteristics such as the high cost of entry for competitors (be it the company making a hospital or the individual training to be a doctor) or the extremely limited bargaining power of purchasers (due to knowledge/complexity of the product, time limitations in purchasing etc) among others. Due to this we can infer that relying on corporations and the free market is unlikely to produce positive outcomes except in areas of healthcare where the characteristics are least pronounced.

Can you answer me this stripe, do you think we should privatize the fire brigades? Your answer may help me understand your general ideology on these matters. In many ways I see them as actually having LESS issues than healthcare to privatize, yet I'm yet to see anyone advocate it....

 

[chrysostom]

you make Americans look like idiots when you don't even recognize the fact that all those other nations have already done it..

You're an idiot.

But you don't really even know what that is, do you.

This is another lie.

thanks for supporting universal health care
it is hard to argue against you

do you understand why we don't have it?

I do

 

[Nick M]

But if you chose to smoke or eat big macs your whole life why do I have to pay for the related health problems?

I should say this post takes a whole bunch of points from your daily stupid score. Now if you would just agree with those politicians who see it this way also. An example of those that agree with you are Ted Cruz and Scott Walker.

 

[Nick M]

Then leave. By living here you benefit. If you want to be self-sufficient then find yourself some island or desolate place and have at it.

Go to hell. You leave. America was formed in rebellion against your style of government. Get it, faggot.

 

[Rusha]

Go to hell. You leave. America was formed in rebellion against your style of government. Get it, faggot.

:think: This really is the best you can come up with, isn't it?

America was formed because it supports FREEDOM of others who do not agree with "your style of government" to express themselves. The freedom and RIGHT to vote is a wonderful thing.

 

[shagster01]

I should say this post takes a whole bunch of points from your daily stupid score. Now if you would just agree with those politicians who see it this way also. An example of those that agree with you are Ted Cruz and Scott Walker.

I do vote for people against this.

 

[chrysostom]

I am for universal health care
but
you have to address these issues

how to control the cost
how to encourage technical advancements
how to encourage research
how to ensure good service

how to get rid of the insurance companies

they won't go away without a fight
and
they have the money for it


maybe we need at least one country without universal health care to ensure technical advancements

to all of the above
we need to add

how to encourage healthy lifestyles

i.e.

those who do not take care of themselves should somehow pay for that

 

[Tinark]

I should say this post takes a whole bunch of points from your daily stupid score. Now if you would just agree with those politicians who see it this way also. An example of those that agree with you are Ted Cruz and Scott Walker.

It's a stupid point. People who smoke cigs die much younger. Their total lifetime healthcare costs are not any higher than those who do not smoke cigs. Those who do not smoke cigs live longer but need just as much healthcare when they start to die from something other than smoking related problems.

Also, no insurance company that I am aware of charges people higher premiums for eating big macs.

 

[This Charming Manc]

America rebelled against monarchy ... who here is suggesting monarchy ?

Only some of the extreme right wing nut jobs round here no one else.

Go to hell. You leave. America was formed in rebellion against your style of government. Get it, faggot.

 

[Nick M]

I am for universal health care

lain:


RINO

 

[Nick M]

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

Do you believe that those who cannot afford it should be entitled to less healthcare than those who can? What do you believe is the correct Christian view on it?

Those who can not afford an extra car (a donkey) a male servant (bulter) female servant (maid) should not have one?

 

[CabinetMaker]

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”





Those who can not afford an extra car (a donkey) a male servant (bulter) female servant (maid) should not have one?

We are to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Would you go hungry if you didn't have too? Would you shorts in the winter if you didn't have tow? Loving our neighbor means that we view their needs as being equally important to our own. Sometimes that might mean that when we go out to by our $50,000 dollar dream car, instead we by two $25,000 average cars and give one to the neighbor down the street who truly needs a reliable car. Not coveting our neighbors stuff does not relieve us from Christ's command of loving and helping our neighbors in need.

If you don't believe this nick, I suggest that you get saved.

 

[Ktoyou]

Universal healthcare does not exist in the USA. What we have, or what is advocated, is much the same as having to buy insurance to drive. The government is not offering free healthcare.

So what are we debating here?

 

[This Charming Manc]

However the law defines personal property and corporate responsibility.

If the law says pay tax, then its no longer your property, and the bible very clear on tax.

If someone decide that you should pay for there healthcare without legal authority to do so that is coveting.

If the legal situation is one that says as a society we are going to pay for our healthcare together by tax, no one has coveted anything.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”



Those who can not afford an extra car (a donkey) a male servant (bulter) female servant (maid) should not have one?

 

[This Charming Manc]

I think the idea of it.

Us Brits were so bemused by the American Right throthing at the mouth over this idea we wanted to know why.

We have a universal system that we love in principle, and cope with in reality, we just could not understand the hostility towards it.

Universal healthcare does not exist in the USA. What we have, or what is advocated, is much the same as having to buy insurance to drive. The government is not offering free healthcare.

So what are we debating here?

 

[Stripe]

We have no such evidence of what you claim.

What we know it's that healthcare has many characteristics which make it a poor product/service to apply market forces to. Characteristics such as the high cost of entry for competitors (be it the company making a hospital or the individual training to be a doctor) or the extremely limited bargaining power of purchasers (due to knowledge/complexity of the product, time limitations in purchasing etc) among others. Due to this we can infer that relying on corporations and the free market is unlikely to produce positive outcomes except in areas of healthcare where the characteristics are least pronounced.

Can you answer me this stripe, do you think we should privatize the fire brigades? Your answer may help me understand your general ideology on these matters. In many ways I see them as actually having LESS issues than healthcare to privatize, yet I'm yet to see anyone advocate it....

Is this going to be your tactic again? Make irrational accusations over "implications" and then run away when called on it?

 

[lovemeorhateme]

Go to hell. You leave. America was formed in rebellion against your style of government. Get it, faggot.

At what point did it become acceptable for someone who claims to be a Christian to speak to someone else in that manner? It didn't, you're wrong and I'm calling you out for it.

Are the fruits of the spirit in your life demonstrated in what you say? They certainly don't appear to be. So perhaps you should take a good long think before you decide to speak to someone like that and ask yourself if you are behaving in a Christ-like manner?

:nono: