The Case Against Universal Healthcare

The Case Against Universal Healthcare


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whitestone

Well-known member

jgarden

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Banned
throwing money at a problem so you can feel good about yourself is not good stewardship

a taxation/government program solution will only bankrupt the country.

It is in the nature of people to find the least resistance to obtain a need.

this above statement is what has destroyed the preceding generations addicted to welfare and it's programs

most of the young ladies we would advocate for would have more children so that their checks would increase.
if they get a job their benefits would go away.
if they got married their benefits would halve or disappear.
The next generation of children learn to work the system and brag about it.

only a few youth and young adults broke this cycle after years of doing advocacy work.

people are less likely to work hard and take care of their own bodies if they believe their health care is free and they can get an easy fix with a pill or a free surgery to clean out the plaque out of their arteries or inject insulin at age 14.

this is idiocy and poor stewardship of the generations that are addicted to welfare and entitlement programs.

this is probably the worst scenario in this country that can happen. It will discourage healthy living and demotivate self reliance.

educate and assist the entitlement addicted, by teaching them empowerment and a vision for their life and their families.
Show them what scripture has to say about life and health and how righteous living produces life and life abundantly.
How ironic, "Word based mystic" bashes the very people that Jesus spent much of his ministry comforting, and then proceeds to lecture them on reading Scripture to show them the error of their ways.

"Word based mystic" is just like the chief priests and Pharisees who read the Torah faithfully, but only read into it what they wanted to hear and were blinded to its true meaning.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Strange how anti-Christ "jgarden" thinks he can use material from the Bible to emotionally manipulate an argument.

Go away, Mr Boldface. Come back when you've got something rational to contribute.
 

shagster01

New member
How ironic, "Word based mystic" bashes the very people that Jesus spent much of his ministry comforting, and then proceeds to lecture them on reading Scripture to show them the error of their ways.

"Word based mystic" is just like the chief priests and Pharisees who read the Torah faithfully, but only read into it what they wanted to hear and were blinded to its true meaning.

Do you think Jesus would have mandated legislation to help the needy, or is it simply an expectation of his followers?

Yes, Jesus helped the needy. Yes, he wanted his disciples to help the needy. But how do you draw the conclusion from that that it should be mandated by the government?
 

whitestone

Well-known member
It's peculiar that the term "mandate" shocks as many as it does. Even as for me I find a mandate (by force) to be offensive but at the same time I also see that the universal type healthcare program was always intended to be "by force",,,

here is the transcript of the Feb.26,2008 debate http://www.nbcnews.com/id/23354734/...eb-democratic-debate-transcript/#.VST_wvB8NNt in it are some "eye-opening" statements. I remember this(I watched it then live) so it did not surprise me that as this was passed into law as a mandate/tax.

To me it is easier to search the transcript for keyword's i.e.,"mandate",then "tax",then "Harry Truman" ect. to take you to the portion where it is being debated. ,,,

Harry Truman is an odd portion of the transcript to search(click read more in the transcript to see the full text or it cannot find it doing a word search) or read it in it's entirety. If so you will notice that Hillery Clinton states that it has been the democratic parties desire to bring this forth since the Truman administration(so for 69 years now).

So this was first set forth by Truman under http://www.trumanlibrary.org/anniversaries/healthprogram.htm (but dropped because people viewed it as communist),but it was a concept that had been discussed even before Truman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_health_care_reform_in_the_United_States .

It is interesting to look at the details being discussed by Obama and Clinton and their word usage of "TAX",that is it seemed a surprise to all that as it(U.H.C.) was pushed through as law it ended up being found to be Constitution because it was essentially a "TAX Raise". In the transcript both Obama and Clinton state that it was from the beginning essentially a Tax and so both knew it would have heavy resistance so restructuring it as a "Tax" was never option B it was always "the first choice",because they knew the people would disapprove so it was "by force from the beginning",and both were in agreement as to do this by force/mandate although they disagreed on the details they both did state that if either were elected President they would seek to do this as "force/mandate/tax",,,
 

PureX

Well-known member
Do you think Jesus would have mandated legislation to help the needy, or is it simply an expectation of his followers?

Yes, Jesus helped the needy. Yes, he wanted his disciples to help the needy. But how do you draw the conclusion from that that it should be mandated by the government?
It is the essential purpose of government to carry out the tasks that the society it governs needs for it's collective survival and well-being. Individuals will not and cannot carry out these tasks, individually. And many will not want to contribute to them, collectively, either, because we are selfish and self-centered creatures. And yet these tasks are still essential to the survival and well-being of our society as a whole.

It has been determined that for any number of reasons, some individuals within a society will not be able to set aside enough money to take care of themselves when they get old, or injured, or ill. And because it is not in the society's best interest to simply allow these people to suffer and die in the streets as a result, it has been decided that we should collectively assure that when an individual becomes old, or injured, or ill, and are otherwise incapable of paying for their own needs, that society as a whole, through the function of government, will do so for them.

And the way this solution was to be achieved was as a kind of mandated insurance system, wherein every individual who is able (has an income) would give a small amount of that income over to a fund that can then be used to distribute aid those in need, in exchange for knowing that the help is there should we ever need it. It's a good system and it works well for relatively little cost.

Unfortunately, here in the U.S., the government has been allowed to become so corrupted that the politicians began raiding these funds and replacing the money with useless promissory notes, so that the funds have become perpetually near bankrupt. Then they blame the bankruptcy on the people the funds were intended to help, and could help if they had not stolen the money.

And because the people don't want to take responsibility for allowing this corruption to occur, and to continue occurring, they accept the corrupt politician's lies and they seek to destroy public welfare systems that were designed to help them, and anyone, when in need. Reverting the nation back to a condition wherein citizens will again suffer and die in the streets for lack of money, because money will have become far more important to us than our own and each other's lives.

Why anyone, but especially Christians, are so on board with doing this is beyond comprehension.
 

jgarden

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Do you think Jesus would have mandated legislation to help the needy, or is it simply an expectation of his followers?

Yes, Jesus helped the needy. Yes, he wanted his disciples to help the needy. But how do you draw the conclusion from that that it should be mandated by the government?
US Constitution

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
- in Order to form a more perfect Union

- insure domestic Tranquility

- promote the general Welfare

- secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity

Given that this government's claim to legitimacy is based on the above goals, providing affordable healthcare to its citizens is well within its mandate under the Constitution.

What's more, the Supreme Court has already ruled that Obamacare is constitutional!
 

genuineoriginal

New member
- in Order to form a more perfect Union

- insure domestic Tranquility

- promote the general Welfare

- secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity

Given that this government's claim to legitimacy is based on the above goals, providing affordable healthcare to its citizens is well within its mandate under the Constitution.

What's more, the Supreme Court has already ruled that Obamacare is constitutional!

Obamacare has nothing to do with forming a more perfect union of the individual states.
Obamacare has nothing to do with insuring domestic Tranquility between the individual states.
Obamacare has nothing to do with Liberty.


As to whether the phrase "general welfare" in the Constitution permits the federal government to institute Obamacare, that was already addressed.

Here is is again, in case you ignored it the first time:
Those two words were not meant to give the Federal government carte blanche.

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Philanthropy

The Founders held philanthropy to be effective only when done by an individual citizen or private organizations. Indeed, the Founders believed that charitable giving sprang from virtue within each individual, or in other words, moral excellence within each person. The Bible says, “It is better to give than to receive,” and this tenet was the bedrock of society to the Founders. They saw no role for government in the area of philanthropy.
Indeed, Thomas Jefferson said, “Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated" (Thomas Jefferson to Albert Gallatin, June 16, 1817).​
According to many leading scholars today, the “General Welfare Clause” of the U.S. Constitution has caused some writers to claim that the Founders thought government should be intimately involved in each citizen’s well-being. Article One, Section 8 of the Constitution states, “The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, imposts and Excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States…”
James Madison agreed with Thomas Jefferson: "With respect to the two words 'general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators" (James Madison to James Robertson, Jr., April 20, 1831).​
_____​
 

jgarden

BANNED
Banned
Obamacare has nothing to do with forming a more perfect union of the individual states.
Obamacare has nothing to do with insuring domestic Tranquility between the individual states.
Obamacare has nothing to do with Liberty.


As to whether the phrase "general welfare" in the Constitution permits the federal government to institute Obamacare, that was already addressed.

Here is again, in case you ignored it the first time:
America is a global leader in medical innovation.
The US solely developed or contributed significantly to 9 of the top 10 most important medical innovations since 1975 as ranked by a 2001 poll of physicians, while the EU and Switzerland together contributed to five.
Since 1966, Americans have received more Nobel Prizes in Medicine than the rest of the world combined.
From 1989 to 2002, four times more money was invested in private biotechnology companies in America than in Europe

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), the United States spent more on health care per capita ($8,608), and more on health care as percentage of its GDP (17.2%), than any other nation in 2011

America ranks close to the bottom compared to other industrialized countries on several important health issues affecting mortality:
- low birth weight,
- infant mortality,
- injuries,
- murder,
- teen pregnancy,
- STDs,
- HIV,
- AIDS,
- deaths resulting from drug overdoses,
- obesity,
- diabetes,
- heart disease,
- COPD,
- general disabilities

United States life expectancy of 78.4 years at birth, up from 75.2 years in 1990, ranks it 50th among 221 nations, and 27th out of the 34 industrialized OECD countries, down from 20th in 1990

Of 17 high-income countries studied by the National Institutes of Health in 2013, the United States had the highest or near-highest prevalence of obesity, car accidents, infant mortality, heart and lung disease, sexually transmitted infections, adolescent pregnancies, injuries, homicides, and disability.
Together, such issues place the U.S. at the bottom of the list for life expectancy

U.S. Census Bureau reported that 49.9 million residents, 16.3% of the population, were uninsured in 2010 (up from 49.0 million residents, 16.1% of the population, in 2009)

2004 Institute of Medicine (IOM) report said: "The United States is among the few industrialized nations in the world that does not guarantee access to health care for its population."

2004 OECD report said: "With the exception of Mexico, Turkey, and the United States, all OECD countries had achieved universal or near-universal (at least 98.4% insured) coverage of their populations by 1990."

Recent evidence demonstrates that lack of health insurance causes some 45,000 to 48,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States.

2007, 62.1% of filers for bankruptcies claimed high medical expenses

2013 study found that about 25% of all senior citizens declare bankruptcy due to medical expenses, and 43% are forced to mortgage or sell their primary residence.

2007 survey had found about 70 million Americans either have difficulty paying for medical treatment or have medical debt

about 60% of those found to have medical debt were insured, the gap between insurance coverage and the affordability of health care manifests as medical debt.

study has found about 63% of adults with medical debt avoided further medical treatment

study conducted in 2012 by Demos that among indebted households 62% cited out-of-pocket medical expenses as a contribution to their debt

March 23, 2010, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) became law.
As of May 2014, about 20 million Americans had gained health insurance coverage under the ACA, and the percentage of uninsured Americans dropped from 18% in 2013 to 13.4%.

National Institutes of Health reported that the lifetime per capita expenditure at birth, using year 2000 dollars, showed a large difference between health care costs of females ($361,192) and males ($268,679)

health care reform in the United States concerns questions of a right to health care:
- access,
- fairness,
- efficiency,
- cost,
- choice,
- value,
- quality

The U.S. pays twice as much as Canada yet lags behind other wealthy nations in such measures as infant mortality and life expectancy

The system does not deliver equivalent value for the money spent.

"Genuineoriginal" would argue than none of these problems concern government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_debt
 
Last edited:

resodko

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It is the essential purpose of government to carry out the tasks that the society it governs needs for it's collective survival and well-being. Individuals will not and cannot carry out these tasks, individually. And many will not want to contribute to them, collectively, either, because we are selfish and self-centered creatures. And yet these tasks are still essential to the survival and well-being of our society as a whole.




my survival and well-being will be enhanced if the gubmint buys me a new car and pays for my food, clothing and shelter
 
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