The Case Against Universal Healthcare

[lovemeorhateme]

I believe that government programs are part & parcel to the reason why healthcare is so expensive.

If that's true, why is British government healthcare cheaper than its US counterpart?

Good question, I know it was much cheaper before Obamacare came down the pike. People in the U.S. are paying an average of 30% more since it came to pass...sometimes more.

I wouldn't advocate for 'Obamacare'. From what I understand it's a complete mess. I'm advocating for a British style healthcare system.

You pay a co-pay every month from your paycheck LMOHM whether you see a physician or not, how can you say that you do not pay a co-pay? and all in the UK pay a tidy sum in taxes to support your UHC albeit cheaper than the U.S. by the stats. The price of care has much more to do with lawyers & the litigious U.S. society as well, if american lawmakers wanted to bring down the price of care, tort reform would bring down the price immensely but , being politicians are mostly lawyers they have not moved a finger to change that environment. The price of malpractice insurance doctors have to carry is astronomical, there are many facets to why HC is so expensive in the U.S.

What you call a copay I would call an 'insurance premium' and I pay nothing more than that. No matter how ill I get, no matter what treatment I need I will never have to pay an extra penny for my treatment in the form of copays.

If they go bankrupt in this country, bankruptcy assures they don't lose everything, in fact it is a dismissal of the debt, not saying it is a good thing. People that can afford HC have went bankrupt depending on what care was received also, and I assure you that some in your country drain the HC system more than others also depending on what care was received.

I don't think going bankrupt is good for anyone, is it? Of course, some will drain the healthcare system more than others. If I was to work out the cost of treatment I've had, it costs far more than I've paid in. The same works with insurance. Some people will get more from their insurance company than others. You are helping fund their treatment too.

It is not a question of the principle but, a question of who is managing the system...nobody trusts the government to do the right thing with the money. They have proven they are not trustworthy of managing social programs.

I tend to agree that governments are not the most efficient organisations around. That being said, they seem to do healthcare better than the private sector if you look at statistics from around the world.

Benefits everyone? that would mean that I could come there illegally and receive that same level of care as an illegal alien? This is another facet of the "American phenomena" that you do not account for when it comes to cost. We are also paying for the care of millions of non-citizens as well with our tax dollars. Does the UK give free care to non-citizens? The U.S. does...every day, just come to any emergency room in any hospital and you can watch it happen.

Actually, the UK NHS will give anyone emergency treatment whether or not they are a British citizen and they won't be landed with a bill. So yes, we do give free care to non-citizens. We see healthcare as a basic human right.

Expecting others to pay your way as well as their own is the sticking point LMOHM. I think that the U.S. citizenry, especially the middle class are weary of always being the ones to subsidize these programs and give increasingly more money while others make a lifestyle of living on these social programs it is not just health care it is a social program snowball where the workers keep paying and the takers keep taking. It is being seen by the most taxed in our society as theft at this point...at some point people start saying when is it enough?

I think everyone should pay their own way, but if they cannot afford to then they should be helped to get the treatment they need. I still fail to see how using the healthcare system in the UK is sinful, and no one has been able to point out just how other than accuse me of 'stealing' and 'coveting'. Again, that's not directed at you as you haven't done so.

Other than wanting to keep a few extra dollars to yourself, is there any other reason you object to universal healthcare?

 

[Tinark]

The US is the only hold-out in the developed world on this matter. And, even then, we have Medicare (universal healthcare for those 65+), which no electable politician would dream of abolishing.

LMOHM: you are right, the US is very peculiar in this matter. Despite all the evidence of being by far the most expensive healthcare system in the world that, despite all that expense, doesn't cover everyone, leads to hundreds of thousands of medical bill related bankruptcies every year, leads to people having to choose between medication or food/rent, that causes people endless amounts of stress and hassle dealing with the insurance companies when the bills come due (often while one is still sick or just starting to recover), and delivers no noticeable increase in quality compared to the other top healthcare systems in the world, you get people to support it.

There is a very active fear propaganda mill here, funded by insurance companies and other big business interests about how UHC is socialism and will turn the US into Stalin's Russia, how people who can't afford healthcare deserve their fate (because they were too lazy to earn money or too unhealthy), and then you get the Christians on this board claiming God agrees with them. You also have the right-wing pundits and right-wing politicians whose whole political career is based on fear, and they push fear like a drug dealer in order to win elections and/or remain relevant.

It must look so archaic and bizarre from your perspective. It would be as bizarre as people claiming that children should only get the education their parents can afford, that public education will turn us into Stalin's Russia, and that God is against public education.

 

[shagster01]

Let's make a deal. No government run health care while they can't even properly set up government officials with government email accounts. When they show some sort of competence in managing things we can revisit the conversation.

 

[Arthur Brain]

It certainly is. And this is not debatable. The demon possessed atheist Red77 (arthurbrain) agrees with you. That should tell you something.

It's not debatable why? Cos you say so? Get over yourself. I happen to agree with Pete because I think people in need of aid shouldn't be denied care based on finances - and unlike you (and despite our differences on other subjects) he actually reflects love and compassion for his fellow man.

Oh, and I'm not an atheist either dingbat.

 

[shagster01]

It must look so archaic and bizarre from your perspective. It would be as bizarre as people claiming that children should only get the education their parents can afford, that public education will turn us into Stalin's Russia, and that God is against public education.

And we see how great our public education is compared to the rest of the world. . .

 

[Tinark]

And we see how great our public education is compared to the rest of the world. . .

It's not that bad. Plus, the rest of the world has public education, so, why is our system so dysfunctional where our quality of government provided services is so poor compared to other countries?

 

[chrysostom]

Case Against Universal Healthcare

post office
amtrak
dmv
irs
veterans hospitals
public schools

 

[Tyrathca]

Case Against Universal Healthcare

post office
amtrak
dmv
irs
veterans hospitals
public schools

Case For Universal Healthcare

The world outside the USA (sometimes I think you guys forget it's populated by anything other than barbarians)

 

[Rusha]

Case Against Universal Healthcare

post office
amtrak
dmv
irs
veterans hospitals
public schools

You never previously or currently utilize ANY of those?

 

[chrysostom]

You never previously or currently utilize ANY of those?

I can see you utilized our public schools

 

[Rusha]

I can see you utilized our public schools

I can see you've never utilized the library ... :chuckle:

 

[PureX]

Case For Universal Healthcare

The world outside the USA (sometimes I think you guys forget it's populated by anything other than barbarians)

I've posted this link a dozen times over the years but no one ever bothers to use it. They're scared to death it might show them that their opinions about national health care in other countries is wrong. So instead they learn nothing, and just go on posting their ignorance and bias time after time.

If anyone is actually interested in seeing an honest comparison of various national health care systems, this is an excellent documentary:

Frontline: Sick Around The World

 

[chrysostom]

I've posted this link a dozen times over the years but no one ever bothers to use it. They're scared to death it might show them that their opinions about national health care in other countries is wrong. So instead they learn nothing, and just go on posting their ignorance and bias time after time.

If anyone is actually interested in seeing an honest comparison of various national health care systems, this is an excellent documentary:

Frontline: Sick Around The World

so where did you explain the veterans hospital problem?

 

[PureX]

so where did you explain the veterans hospital problem?

I'me sorry for the offense, chrys, but you're far too ignorant on this subject (as with many others) to bother with. Nothing I post will make a dent in that ignorance, and so I'm not going to waste the time. The fact that you asked this particular question in the face of the overall issue of Health care in the U.S. only exemplifies this.

 

[Tyrathca]

so where did you explain the veterans hospital problem?

I'm not sure what this veterans hospital problem you refer to is but ultimately it is irrelevant to the wider argument. A specific problem for a specific system does not invalidate the effectiveness of the general strategy. All systems will have issues and failures but the evidence shows that countries which emphasise universal healthcare generally have more efficient healthcare systems than the USA's.

 

[zoo22]

The case against universal healthcare is that it gets so many people's knees jerking and heads spinning so insanely that their feet and heads fly off. Severed feet and heads everywhere. It gets crazy with the stub-legged, headless freedom-lovers thrashing around all over the place trying to find their brains.

 

[chrysostom]

I'me sorry for the offense, chrys, but you're far too ignorant on this subject (as with many others) to bother with. Nothing I post will make a dent in that ignorance, and so I'm not going to waste the time. The fact that you asked this particular question in the face of the overall issue of Health care in the U.S. only exemplifies this.

that's why I ask questions

so why do you just insult the questioner?

 

[chrysostom]

This is just flat out false.


This is another lie.

this is how purex answered my other post

 

[Tyrathca]

that's why I ask questions

so why do you just insult the questioner?

To be fair PureX has a point, there is about as much point trying to engage is in depth debate with you as there is beating your head against a wall. I've never known you to actually use evidence and defend it, at best you'll through up some question and then fall back on sound bites and ideology. Maybe this is the time you'll engage in something more but I wouldn't hold my breathe and I don't think its unreasonable to not expect others to either.

Can you at least show that you understand what you are citing and explain its implications before expecting others to likely waste their time addressing it? What you have said so far is rather vague.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I find it harder and harder to build a case against universal health care. The cost of health care has made it completely unaffordable to the average American. According to a story from CBS, the average cost of a heart attack is:

According to an article from the National Business Group on Health, the average total cost of a severe heart attack--including direct and indirect costs--is about $1 million. Direct costs include charges for hospitals, doctors and prescription drugs, while the indirect costs include lost productivity and time away from work. The average cost of a less severe heart attack is about $760,000. Amortized over 20 years, that's $50,000 per year for a severe heart attack and $38,000 per year for a less severe heart attack.

For a severe heart attack that is about $4,200/ month without interest. For a less severe attack its about $3,200/ month.

When we have priced ourselves out of affordable health care, it seems to me that the next logical step almost inevitably becomes some sort of socialized medicine.

Some other typical surgeries:

Spoiler

In some cases, the average cost of a surgery exceeds the average gross income. There is a big problem.