beloved57
Well-known member
Amen , Thats why Jesus told nicodemus he must be born again, in light of the fact that He would die for his sins and abolish death for him, and granting him New Life because of it !
The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
- Thread starter beloved57
- Start date
Amen , Thats why Jesus told nicodemus he must be born again, in light of the fact that He would die for his sins and abolish death for him, and granting him New Life because of it !
Nanja
Well-known member
So true. And as with Nicodemus, so Christ knows each and every one
that was chosen in Him Eph. 1:4 that must be born again!
~~~~~
beloved57
Well-known member
Correct, to each one He is a life giving Spirit 1 Cor 15:45 meaning He sends them the Spirit to quicken them with New Life from above !
beloved57
Well-known member
Made us dead to the Law ! 6
Made us dead to the Law ! 6
Continuing with that thought of Union with Christ legally, and because of it, who and what we are as sinners by nature, the children of wrath as others Eph 2:3, that was crucified with Christ, so we read Rom 6:6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
In the original, it would better read, " Knowing this, that our old man was [past tense] crucified with Him "
Thats True only because of being in Union with Him. The original word for crucified systauroō actually means:
I.to crucify along with the word with denoting a Union association ! Thats Union with Christ !
Paul says the same thing of himself personally, though as just seen, it applys to all for whom He died Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Again, thats past tense, was crucified with Christ ! And notice, out of that and nevertheless he lived, out of being given Life from Christ !
Hence, it is no such thing as Christ dying for our sins without us already in the purpose of God being in Union with Him, those in 1 Cor 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
The Ones " Our sins" applies to, every last one of them had to be in Union with Christ at the Time He died for their sins ! BTW that is an Election Union !
Made us dead to the Law ! 6
Continuing with that thought of Union with Christ legally, and because of it, who and what we are as sinners by nature, the children of wrath as others Eph 2:3, that was crucified with Christ, so we read Rom 6:6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
In the original, it would better read, " Knowing this, that our old man was [past tense] crucified with Him "
Thats True only because of being in Union with Him. The original word for crucified systauroō actually means:
I.to crucify along with the word with denoting a Union association ! Thats Union with Christ !
Paul says the same thing of himself personally, though as just seen, it applys to all for whom He died Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Again, thats past tense, was crucified with Christ ! And notice, out of that and nevertheless he lived, out of being given Life from Christ !
Hence, it is no such thing as Christ dying for our sins without us already in the purpose of God being in Union with Him, those in 1 Cor 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
The Ones " Our sins" applies to, every last one of them had to be in Union with Christ at the Time He died for their sins ! BTW that is an Election Union !
Ben Masada
New member
Not according to the Prophets Jer. 31:30 and Ezek. 18:20. They say that no one can die for the sins of another. Since Jesus was a Jewish man whose Faith was Judaism, atonement had nothing to do with his blood shed on the cross.
A blood atonement resulted in a religion focused on being saved by Jesus' blood and getting into heaven.
Ironic, since it began with Jesus putting down the Gentiles and telling folks his message was to the Jews only--"the House of Israel" and preaching forgiveness and working out conflicts with one's own neighbor. A God of mercy, not sacrifice.
And he never said or agreed with those who declared him God.
Ironic, since it began with Jesus putting down the Gentiles and telling folks his message was to the Jews only--"the House of Israel" and preaching forgiveness and working out conflicts with one's own neighbor. A God of mercy, not sacrifice.
And he never said or agreed with those who declared him God.
Ben Masada
New member
Doubly wrong! One will neither be saved by Jesus' blood nor get into heaven. First, to believe such a doctrine of salvation by Jesus' blood, you have to reject the Prophets of God who said that no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30 and Ezek. 18:20) And second, heaven according to Jesus himself is not a place to get into but a peaceful state of mind supposed to be found within ourselves. That's in Luke 17:21.
beloved57
Well-known member
Made us dead to the Law ! 7
Made us dead to the Law ! 7
Now in light of the pre-existing union, a union all must have had with Him, if indeed He did die for them, for their sins, He accepted upon Himself the wages of their sins, which was death Rom 6:23, their debt of sin has been paid in full, He paid the debt in total for all of the Old man they are from the cradle to the grave Rom 6:6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
That Old Man covers all what they are by nature, children of wrath Eph 2:3 and as a result they are freed or Justified from sin, which is but another way of saying they were dead to the Law by the Body of Christ, Lets look at Rom 6:7
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
He that is dead here means, he that was crucified with Christ, or died with Christ, that person, whomsoever they may be, is freed from sin.
That word freed is the greek word dikaioó:
I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.
So he that died with Christ, he that is dead, is acquitted, justified from sin, and regarded as righteous ! See Rom 5:19 also !
So to be dead to the Law by the Body of Christ, means equally to be made righteous, justified, and acquitted before they believe a thing, even before they know anything about it, for its a mystery to them. Its even true of them before they are born into that sin nature whereby they become by nature children of wrath like others Eph 2:3, for that is nothing but that old man which had been already crucified with Christ Rom 6:6 !
Made us dead to the Law ! 7
Now in light of the pre-existing union, a union all must have had with Him, if indeed He did die for them, for their sins, He accepted upon Himself the wages of their sins, which was death Rom 6:23, their debt of sin has been paid in full, He paid the debt in total for all of the Old man they are from the cradle to the grave Rom 6:6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
That Old Man covers all what they are by nature, children of wrath Eph 2:3 and as a result they are freed or Justified from sin, which is but another way of saying they were dead to the Law by the Body of Christ, Lets look at Rom 6:7
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
He that is dead here means, he that was crucified with Christ, or died with Christ, that person, whomsoever they may be, is freed from sin.
That word freed is the greek word dikaioó:
I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.
So he that died with Christ, he that is dead, is acquitted, justified from sin, and regarded as righteous ! See Rom 5:19 also !
So to be dead to the Law by the Body of Christ, means equally to be made righteous, justified, and acquitted before they believe a thing, even before they know anything about it, for its a mystery to them. Its even true of them before they are born into that sin nature whereby they become by nature children of wrath like others Eph 2:3, for that is nothing but that old man which had been already crucified with Christ Rom 6:6 !
You have set up your interpretation of Scripture as a black/white, either/or issue.
From Genesis through to the letters of Paul, there are two strands of tradition written into the text. The older tradition is a mercy-based repentance centered around forgiveness and dealing with our brothers and sisters face to face to work out problems of sin and other human conflicts.
The much later tradition is the God of judgment who wants sacrifice, not mercy. It was more Temple-centered. Sometimes the authors of the Hebrew Bible (the "Old Testament") even had the two traditions bound up together in a single verse!
Once we can get a fact-based historical context to help us discover what the original authors meant when they wrote their accounts can enrich our experience as Christians.
Jesus stormed through the Temple and since it is mentioned in all three gospels, there must be a core of real history behind it.
And the temple was a place of blood sacrifice, where the priests controlled it, sold the animals, kept the best parts of the meat and basically told everyone to follow them.
Jesus was different.
There is a profound metaphor of the curtain temple tearing in two when Jesus dies. The barrier separating the clergy from the people was no more and neither churches nor preachers could mediate the relationship between God and humankind.
Thanks to the cross, it is now available to all.
I see freedom as pertaining to bondage, such as the long history of the Jews remembers. And salvation is about transformation in this life. Jesus offered and granted salvation to many during his life, long before he went to Golgatha.
beloved57
Well-known member
Evasion and Rabbit trail away from my points made !
beloved57
Well-known member
Made us dead to the Law ! 8
Made us dead to the Law ! 8
Now how is it that all for whom Christ died, are by that, made dead to the Law Rom 7:4 ? Lets remember as well Rom 6:7
For he that is dead[died in and with Christ] is freed from sin.
They are freed from sin, made Righteous, how can they be made Righteous at the same time that they are freed from sin, and dead to the Law ?
Its because all for whom Christ died, as they had their sins charged to Him [so He could die for them], yet at the same time, they had His Righteousness charged to them or to their account [as a free Gift], its called the Gift of Righteousness Rom 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
The word Gift here dórea:
a (free) gift, a gift (without repayment).
dōreá (a feminine noun, derived from 1325 /dídōmi) – a gift, freely given and hence not acquired by merit or "entitlement." 1431 /dōreá (a feminine noun) expresses a brand of giving that highlights the beneficent desire of the giver.
Notice that its a Gift freely given, not a offer made as religionist would have us to believe, the Gift of Righteousness is simply donated or bestowed to their persons, their account, much in the same way that their sins had been laid upon Christ's charge, they were caused to meet upon Him, So the Gift of Righteousness is in turned caused to meet upon their account,
Its sorta like a exchange as indicated here 2 Cor 5:21
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
That scripture states it all ! Again it cannot be overstated , this exchange / transaction occurred before they believed, even before they're born, in fact its true so much that all for whom Christ died are as sinners, as children of wrath as others Eph 2:3 they are born acquitted already, and declared righteous before God. You see it had nothing to do with their repentance, though they shall repent, had nothing to do with their believing, though they shall believe, nothing to do with their calling upon the name of the Lord, even though they shall, but these things they shall do because of what has already been done for them, because they had already by the Body of Christ, His death, been made dead to the Law, dead to sin, acquitted and made Righteous, and God finally reveals to them by the Gospel the Mystery of His Will concerning them Eph 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
John Gill writes of this verse :
God by the Gospel, to those Christ died, makes Known to them what benefits they have charged to their account because of Christ's Death for them, otherwise it would have remained a Mystery !
1 Cor 2:7,10
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Made us dead to the Law ! 8
Now how is it that all for whom Christ died, are by that, made dead to the Law Rom 7:4 ? Lets remember as well Rom 6:7
For he that is dead[died in and with Christ] is freed from sin.
They are freed from sin, made Righteous, how can they be made Righteous at the same time that they are freed from sin, and dead to the Law ?
Its because all for whom Christ died, as they had their sins charged to Him [so He could die for them], yet at the same time, they had His Righteousness charged to them or to their account [as a free Gift], its called the Gift of Righteousness Rom 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
The word Gift here dórea:
a (free) gift, a gift (without repayment).
dōreá (a feminine noun, derived from 1325 /dídōmi) – a gift, freely given and hence not acquired by merit or "entitlement." 1431 /dōreá (a feminine noun) expresses a brand of giving that highlights the beneficent desire of the giver.
Notice that its a Gift freely given, not a offer made as religionist would have us to believe, the Gift of Righteousness is simply donated or bestowed to their persons, their account, much in the same way that their sins had been laid upon Christ's charge, they were caused to meet upon Him, So the Gift of Righteousness is in turned caused to meet upon their account,
Its sorta like a exchange as indicated here 2 Cor 5:21
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
That scripture states it all ! Again it cannot be overstated , this exchange / transaction occurred before they believed, even before they're born, in fact its true so much that all for whom Christ died are as sinners, as children of wrath as others Eph 2:3 they are born acquitted already, and declared righteous before God. You see it had nothing to do with their repentance, though they shall repent, had nothing to do with their believing, though they shall believe, nothing to do with their calling upon the name of the Lord, even though they shall, but these things they shall do because of what has already been done for them, because they had already by the Body of Christ, His death, been made dead to the Law, dead to sin, acquitted and made Righteous, and God finally reveals to them by the Gospel the Mystery of His Will concerning them Eph 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
John Gill writes of this verse :
God by the Gospel, to those Christ died, makes Known to them what benefits they have charged to their account because of Christ's Death for them, otherwise it would have remained a Mystery !
1 Cor 2:7,10
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
concepts of 'atonement' vary........
concepts of 'atonement' vary........
I've not written a full biography on it yet,....just a pathway along the greater way of life of learning. The 'CTR' ring idea just came to me, as it helped the younger kids to 'Choose The Right', showing there is some religious values instilled in children that are indeed positive, and that DOING God's will is KEY.....not just believing in a church doctrine or concept. Being righteous is what avails, not just believing that someone else has made you righteous, because this denies the principle of self-responsibility.
I've debated some of our LDS heavyweights here in the past, so as far as 'mormonism' goes, been there done that, but on any subject there's always more to learn/discover/explore. Being an ex-lds, we have a little more insight into the 'cult-ure' of Mormonism by first hand experience. I think we've had a few threads on Mormonism recently, but would need to research that. LDS concept of 'atonement' is somewhat different than traditional Christianity as you may know, with a somewhat twisted concept of 'blood-atonement' taught by some in the early days, where you could kill some sinner, and the blood that was shed served to atone for their sins.
Back to the thread topic and title-question,.....believing that an 'atonement' was made 2,000 years ago does not necessarily or effectively do anything, except what your own belief claims, but how that applies towards a true transformation of heart or soul, is another matter. A one time confession does not guarantee 'salvation', but repentance and right-doing avails much. If a 'confession', 'belief', 'assumption', 'religious concept' serves to inspire true repentance and transformation of heart/soul, then it can be used appropriately.
pj
concepts of 'atonement' vary........
I've not written a full biography on it yet,....just a pathway along the greater way of life of learning. The 'CTR' ring idea just came to me, as it helped the younger kids to 'Choose The Right', showing there is some religious values instilled in children that are indeed positive, and that DOING God's will is KEY.....not just believing in a church doctrine or concept. Being righteous is what avails, not just believing that someone else has made you righteous, because this denies the principle of self-responsibility.
I've debated some of our LDS heavyweights here in the past, so as far as 'mormonism' goes, been there done that, but on any subject there's always more to learn/discover/explore. Being an ex-lds, we have a little more insight into the 'cult-ure' of Mormonism by first hand experience. I think we've had a few threads on Mormonism recently, but would need to research that. LDS concept of 'atonement' is somewhat different than traditional Christianity as you may know, with a somewhat twisted concept of 'blood-atonement' taught by some in the early days, where you could kill some sinner, and the blood that was shed served to atone for their sins.
Back to the thread topic and title-question,.....believing that an 'atonement' was made 2,000 years ago does not necessarily or effectively do anything, except what your own belief claims, but how that applies towards a true transformation of heart or soul, is another matter. A one time confession does not guarantee 'salvation', but repentance and right-doing avails much. If a 'confession', 'belief', 'assumption', 'religious concept' serves to inspire true repentance and transformation of heart/soul, then it can be used appropriately.
pj
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
truth beyond the bunny trails......
truth beyond the bunny trails......
And without Paul's letters, or those 'ascribed' to him (almost half are pseudographical), what do you have?
Research on Paul
I think the bunny trail is on 'auto-loop' in your court
You make a true atonement for your sins by your own 'repentance'....for starters. This has been the rally-cry of most all the Jewish prophets, if their word means anything. It was/is also the message of Jesus and his original 12 apostles. "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". Paul came along, on his own claims of apostleship...and put a different 'spin' on things. Sadly this is the only place 'hyper-calvinism' can rest, in a few passages of Paul, that's it. I'm not convinced.
pj
truth beyond the bunny trails......
And without Paul's letters, or those 'ascribed' to him (almost half are pseudographical), what do you have?
Research on Paul
I think the bunny trail is on 'auto-loop' in your court
You make a true atonement for your sins by your own 'repentance'....for starters. This has been the rally-cry of most all the Jewish prophets, if their word means anything. It was/is also the message of Jesus and his original 12 apostles. "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". Paul came along, on his own claims of apostleship...and put a different 'spin' on things. Sadly this is the only place 'hyper-calvinism' can rest, in a few passages of Paul, that's it. I'm not convinced.
pj
beloved57
Well-known member
And without Paul's letters, or those 'ascribed' to him (almost half are pseudographical), what do you have?
Research on Paul
I think the bunny trail is on 'auto-loop' in your court
You make a true atonement for your sins by your own 'repentance'....for starters. This has been the rally-cry of most all the Jewish prophets, if their word means anything. It was/is also the message of Jesus and his original 12 apostles. "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". Paul came along, on his own claims of apostleship...and put a different 'spin' on things. Sadly this is the only place 'hyper-calvinism' can rest, in a few passages of Paul, that's it. I'm not convinced.
pj
Invalid comments !
Quoting from Paul is the "rabbit trail" here.
In contrast to Jesus, Paul saw the Gentiles as worth converting and also believed in a blood sacrifice to God.
Jesus did not agree with blood sacrifices, as his actions in the main temple prove to us. And he put Gentiles down and claimed his message was to the Jews only.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
its validity speaks for itself......
its validity speaks for itself......
Quite valid, since the majority of 'proof-texts' proposed by you are writings attributed to Paul. Remember what the writer of 2 Peter said about what some do with Paul's writings?
Don't forget,...doing right is the way; you make atonement for your own soul by your own self-sacrifice of all that is wrong, exchanging it for what is right, via 'repentance', 'reformation', 'return to righteousness'. How else? :idunno:
If you assume 'faith' is essential, indeed it is,...but remember James words here. You prove your faith by DOING what it inspires, and that faith is only fulfilled by acting upon it.
pj
its validity speaks for itself......
Quite valid, since the majority of 'proof-texts' proposed by you are writings attributed to Paul. Remember what the writer of 2 Peter said about what some do with Paul's writings?
Don't forget,...doing right is the way; you make atonement for your own soul by your own self-sacrifice of all that is wrong, exchanging it for what is right, via 'repentance', 'reformation', 'return to righteousness'. How else? :idunno:
If you assume 'faith' is essential, indeed it is,...but remember James words here. You prove your faith by DOING what it inspires, and that faith is only fulfilled by acting upon it.
pj
beloved57
Well-known member
Invalid and Evasive comments !
beloved57
Well-known member
Invalid and Evasive comments !
I am not disagreeing with you. But you really need to show evidence for this.
Just cut-and-paste the specific sentences I have posted, read them carefully and then offer biblical and historical proof to support your arguments.
I hope that makes some sense to you.