The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[aikido7]

Invalid and Evasive comments !

You need to slow down and take a deep breath here....

All you need to do is cut-and-paste the specific parts of my post that bother you or that you are in disagreement of and then think them through and offer your own arguments based on the Bible and historical research.

To fling around a judgement like this does nothing for me or for anyone else committed to adult and respectful dialogue. It sounds to me that you are losing your temper and are letting your emotions drive your writing.

 

[beloved57]

I am not disagreeing with you. But you really need to show evidence for this.

Just cut-and-paste the specific sentences I have posted, read them carefully and then offer biblical and historical proof to support your arguments.

I hope that makes some sense to you.

You evaded my points !

 

[aikido7]

You evaded my points !

Geeze Louise !!!!

Then simply show me your evidence !!!

1. List these points concisely
2.Then compare them with my points
3.Show how mine are in fact invasive, using both faith evidence and historical evidence.

Easy enough.

 

[beloved57]

Geeze Louise !!!!

Then simply show me your evidence !!!

1. List these points concisely
2.Then compare them with my points
3.Show how mine are in fact invasive, using both faith evidence and historical evidence.

Easy enough.

You evaded my points of evidence, that is the issue !

 

[aikido7]

You evaded my points of evidence, that is the issue !

Duly noted.

If you will list your points, I am willing to go over them with you together.

If you don't want to present evidence and hold me to task for taking them seriously, I understand. It is difficult to confront issues that can threaten our entire belief system.

I guess I was lucky in that I was raised to actually crave criticism and different ideas. My parents taught me an important truth that only by soliciting and taking in criticism of my thoughts and feelings will result in my learning something new about myself or my beliefs.

It will be hard to deal with someone who is defensive and shrill whenever their worldview is criticised.

 

[aikido7]

You evaded my points of evidence, that is the issue !

Evaded?
Show me when.
Tell me how.
Use evidence, facts and data.

 

[beloved57]

Evaded?
Show me when.
Tell me how.
Use evidence, facts and data.

Yeah evaded !

 

[Ben Masada]

You have set up your interpretation of Scripture as a black/white, either/or issue.

That's how the Truth is. There is no other way to paint it.

From Genesis through to the letters of Paul, there are two strands of tradition written into the text. The older tradition is a mercy-based repentance centered around forgiveness and dealing with our brothers and sisters face to face to work out problems of sin and other human conflicts.

That's the tradition Jesus adopted. He said once that if one goes to the Temple to plead for forgiveness and is suddenly reminded that he has an issue with his neighbor, he might as well leave all behind and go reconcile with his neighbor and only then return to the Temple.

The much later tradition is the God of judgment who wants sacrifice, not mercy. It was more Temple-centered. Sometimes the authors of the Hebrew Bible (the "Old Testament") even had the two traditions bound up together in a single verse!

Believe it or not, the God of judgment never commanded that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel. They were allowed by Moses as an act of "Pichuah Nephesh." Therefore, sacrifices became a commandment of man, not of God.

Once we can get a fact-based historical context to help us discover what the original authors meant when they wrote their accounts can enrich our experience as Christians.

And the only way to achieve it is by acknowledging that the Word of God was given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. (Psalm 147:19,20)

Jesus stormed through the Temple and since it is mentioned in all three gospels, there must be a core of real history behind it. And the temple was a place of blood sacrifice, where the priests controlled it, sold the animals, kept the best parts of the meat and basically told everyone to follow them.

You must be referring to the money changers before the Temple. If Jesus was charismatic, do you think there was any need for he to storm through the Temple? I don't think so. In that case, he broke the Golden Rule and sinned against the second part of the Decalogue.

There is a profound metaphor of the curtain temple tearing in two when Jesus dies. The barrier separating the clergy from the people was no more and neither churches nor preachers could mediate the relationship between God and humankind.

Right! It had to be a metaphor because it never happened literally. The Talmud which covers the period before 200 BCE and until 200 ACE does not mention the event. It surely would if it had happened.

Thanks to the cross, it is now available to all.

How about the cross of all the other thousands of Jews crucified by the Romans in the First Century? They didn't count? Probably they did not have a Paul to make a Christ out of them.

 

[aikido7]

That's how the Truth is. There is no other way to paint it.

Truth is what highlights the conflict of opposed ideologies.
If today's Christianity really believed truth was a black/white issue then they would not be eating at Red Lobster after church because the Bible says eating shellfish is "an abomination."

Since we all cherry pick our beliefs and "truths," no one can ever practice "the truth."



That's the tradition Jesus adopted. He said once that if one goes to the Temple to plead for forgiveness and is suddenly reminded that he has an issue with his neighbor, he might as well leave all behind and go reconcile with his neighbor and only then return to the Temple.

Believe it or not, the God of judgment never commanded that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel. They were allowed by Moses as an act of "Pichuah Nephesh." Therefore, sacrifices became a commandment of man, not of God.

Explain more about this to me. It sounds intriguing.

And the only way to achieve it is by acknowledging that the Word of God was given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. (Psalm 147:19,20)

That's where you get the phrase "chosen people," isn't it?

You must be referring to the money changers before the Temple. If Jesus was charismatic, do you think there was any need for he to storm through the Temple? I don't think so. In that case, he broke the Golden Rule and sinned against the second part of the Decalogue.

Given Jesus' attitude toward the priests and sacrifices of blood, he probably didn't feel he had a choice in the matter.

The temple incident tells us it was a real historical happening and it represtented Jesus' beliefs about the blood sacrifical system of the preists.

Right! It had to be a metaphor because it never happened literally. The Talmud which covers the period before 200 BCE and until 200 ACE does not mention the event. It surely would if it had happened.

Do you mean the actual "storming of the Temple by Jesus?

How about the cross of all the other thousands of Jews crucified by the Romans in the First Century? They didn't count? Probably they did not have a Paul to make a Christ out of them.

Jesus was not the only first-century person to announce a new religious movement and be crucified by Rome.

There are about a dozen other charismatic Jews besides Jesus who were basically proclaiming the same thing and were all slaughtered--some by crucifixion. Celcius, a contemporary historian at the time, even made a joke about the phenomenon:

"I am God, or the servant of God, or a divine spirit. But I am coming, for the world is already in the throes of destruction. And you will soon see me coming with the power of heaven."

He was not just talking about Jesus here, but was saying how all of these failed leaders spoke like.

 

[beloved57]

The redeemed of the Lord shall return !

The redeemed of the Lord shall return !

Isa 51:11

11 Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.

Many in man made religion dont understand nor believe the effects that Christ's redeeming death had on all for whom He died, It returns them back to God from whom they went astray, apostatized from in Adam, yet His redeeming death shall cause them to return, as it is written, the redeemed of the Lord shall [predestined] return.

To give an idea of this blessed return, look at the prodigal son Lk 15:11-21

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

Now notice vs 17-20 , thats the action of being returned to the Lord, thats what is effected in each of the redeemed of the Lord, those Christ died for, in other words, Christ's redeeming death receives all the credit for the actions of the returning son in Vs 17-20 !

Now this very same Illustration is stated in Peters writings 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Peter writing to the redeemed, those redeemed by the precious blood of the Lamb, notice what he writes:

They were redeemed out of a vain conversation or manner of Life Vs 18

The word from preposition ek means:

I.out of, from, by, away from

See how Peter is crediting the Blood of Christ as the means by which they were brought out of, away from a vain manner of life ! Peter does not say it was due to their wise decision making, or their freewill, that they are changed, but again, because of the precious blood of the Lamb !

Yet even more to the point is what he writes later here 1 Pet 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Notice the word returned in Vs 25, that applies to the redeemed back up in 1 Pet 1:18-20 !

So you see, thats what Isa 51:11 means, the redeemed of the Lord shall return or be returned.

The word returned in 1 Pet 2:25 is the greek word epistrephō:

I.transitively

A.to turn to

i.to the worship of the true God



B.to cause to return, to bring back

i.to the love and obedience of God

Here in the text its in the passive voice :

The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action. E.g., in the sentence, "The boy was hit by the ball," the boy receives the action.

The passive effects the middle and causes the subject to act, so the word also means:


A.to turn to one's self


B.to turn one's self about, turn back


C.to return, turn back, come back

Because whats being effected here is conversion !

Lets look back once again at the prodigal Lk 15:17-18

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

The son being acted upon as in being the hit ball, he corresponds in like action, though he begins to act and cooperate, he is not the author of it, the redeeming blood of Christ is ! So again we see come to past what is promised in the prophecy Isa 51:11

11 Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.

Fulfilled in Christ, the Redeemed 1 Pet 1:18 and the being returned 1 Pet 2:25 !

 

[Nanja]

Isa 51:11

11 Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.

Many in man made religion dont understand nor believe the effects that Christ's redeeming death had on all for whom He died, It returns them back to God from whom they went astray, apostatized from in Adam, yet His redeeming death shall cause them to return, as it is written, the redeemed of the Lord shall [predestined] return.

To give an idea of this blessed return, look at the prodigal son Lk 15:11-21



Now notice vs 17-20 , thats the action of being returned to the Lord, thats what is effected in each of the redeemed of the Lord, those Christ died for, in other words, Christ's redeeming death receives all the credit for the actions of the returning son in Vs 17-20 !

Now this very same Illustration is stated in Peters writings 1 Pet 1:18-20



Peter writing to the redeemed, those redeemed by the precious blood of the Lamb, notice what he writes:

They were redeemed out of a vain conversation or manner of Life Vs 18

The word from preposition ek means:

I.out of, from, by, away from

See how Peter is crediting the Blood of Christ as the means by which they were brought out of, away from a vain manner of life ! Peter does not say it was due to their wise decision making, or their freewill, that they are changed, but again, because of the precious blood of the Lamb !

Yet even more to the point is what he writes later here 1 Pet 2:24-25



Notice the word returned in Vs 25, that applies to the redeemed back up in 1 Pet 1:18-20 !

So you see, thats what Isa 51:11 means, the redeemed of the Lord shall return or be returned.

The word returned in 1 Pet 2:25 is the greek word epistrephō:

I.transitively

A.to turn to

i.to the worship of the true God



B.to cause to return, to bring back

i.to the love and obedience of God

Here in the text its in the passive voice :



The passive effects the middle and causes the subject to act, so the word also means:


A.to turn to one's self


B.to turn one's self about, turn back


C.to return, turn back, come back

Because whats being effected here is conversion !

Lets look back once again at the prodigal Lk 15:17-18

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

The son being acted upon as in being the hit ball, he corresponds in like action, though he begins to act and cooperate, he is not the author of it, the redeeming blood of Christ is ! So again we see come to past what is promised in the prophecy Isa 51:11

11 Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.

Fulfilled in Christ, the Redeemed 1 Pet 1:18 and the being returned 1 Pet 2:25 !

Praise God for another good study! ☺

The Elect Heirs of God born in time, start out as Lost Sheep, in that being lost in Adam,
they must be restored to fellowship with their Shepherd by being made Spiritually Alive.
So Father draws them back to Him John 6:44: 1 Pet. 2:25, causing them to return;
and they are converted by the Power of God; not by any human effort of their own.

But the others, reprobates, the devil's children, are lost permanently; they are the goats of Mat. 25:41.

~~~~~

 

[beloved57]

Praise God for another good study! ☺

The Elect Heirs of God born in time, start out as Lost Sheep, in that being lost in Adam,
they must be restored to fellowship with their Shepherd by being made Spiritually Alive.
So Father draws them back to Him John 6:44: 1 Pet. 2:25, causing them to return;
and they are converted by the Power of God; not by any human effort of their own.

But the others, reprobates, the devil's children, are lost permanently; they are the goats of Mat. 25:41.

~~~~~

Amen !

 

[aikido7]

Yeah evaded !

Then show me when.
Tell me how.
Use evidence, facts and data.

 

[beloved57]

Then show me when.
Tell me how.
Use evidence, facts and data.

Don't you know how to read ?

 

[beloved57]

The redeemed of the Lord shall return ! 2

The redeemed of the Lord shall return ! 2

Redemption brings back those who went astray in Adam the son of God Lk 3:38 Isa 53:6

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The sons of God in their natural federal head Adam, turned everyone his own way, but yet through the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus, they [The Sheep who went astray] shall be returned to God, 1 Pet 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray[Isa 53:6]; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

The Healing of the Stripes effects the return to God ! See also 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us[The Sheep] to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

That He might bring us [the Sheep] back to God denotes the stated Purpose for Christ suffering for sins, the Just for the unjust ! The word that :

hína (a subordinating conjunction) – for the purpose that (in order that), looking to the aim (intended result) of the verbal idea. 2443 /hína ("for the purpose that")

The Purpose and intended result for For Christ dying for our sins, was that it would bring us to God !

And Remember 1 Pet 3:18 relates back to 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

I hope this is clear, Redemption by the Precious Blood of Christ brings the Lost Sheep back to God, that was the Purpose of His "hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust"

Listen folks, If Christ's Redemptive Death does not effect a returning or coming back to God or Conversion, then it failed the Divine Purpose and Intention, but yet that is what all religionists are willing to state if they indeed teach that Christ died for some that shall never be converted back to God Acts 3:19, they teach a failed Christ !

But Glory to God, True Believers believe all for whom He died, of God's Sheep, shall be converted back to God, 100 % of the Sheepfold !

 

[Nanja]

Now how is it that all for whom Christ died, are by that, made dead to the Law Rom 7:4 ? Lets remember as well Rom 6:7

For he that is dead[died in and with Christ] is freed from sin.

They are freed from sin, made Righteous, how can they be made Righteous at the same time that they are freed from sin, and dead to the Law ?

Its because all for whom Christ died, as they had their sins charged to Him [so He could die for them], yet at the same time, they had His Righteousness charged to them or to their account [as a free Gift], its called the Gift of Righteousness Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

The word Gift here dórea:

a (free) gift, a gift (without repayment).

dōreá (a feminine noun, derived from 1325 /dídōmi) – a gift, freely given and hence not acquired by merit or "entitlement." 1431 /dōreá (a feminine noun) expresses a brand of giving that highlights the beneficent desire of the giver.

Notice that its a Gift freely given, not a offer made as religionist would have us to believe, the Gift of Righteousness is simply donated or bestowed to their persons, their account, much in the same way that their sins had been laid upon Christ's charge, they were caused to meet upon Him, So the Gift of Righteousness is in turned caused to meet upon their account,

Its sorta like a exchange as indicated here 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

That scripture states it all ! Again it cannot be overstated , this exchange / transaction occurred before they believed, even before they're born, in fact its true so much that all for whom Christ died are as sinners, as children of wrath as others Eph 2:3 they are born acquitted already, and declared righteous before God. You see it had nothing to do with their repentance, though they shall repent, had nothing to do with their believing, though they shall believe, nothing to do with their calling upon the name of the Lord, even though they shall, but these things they shall do because of what has already been done for them, because they had already by the Body of Christ, His death, been made dead to the Law, dead to sin, acquitted and made Righteous, and God finally reveals to them by the Gospel the Mystery of His Will concerning them Eph 1:9

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

John Gill writes of this verse :



God by the Gospel, to those Christ died, makes Known to them what benefits they have charged to their account because of Christ's Death for them, otherwise it would have remained a Mystery !

1 Cor 2:7,10

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Your series "Made us dead to the Law!" was an excellent study on that topic, all 8 parts! (finally finished ☺)

The Lord richly bless you!

~~~~~

 

[aikido7]

Don't you know how to read ?

As long as there is interesting or different writing, I LOVE to read. I was blessed with a critical mind and an open one. I am an inveterate reader and I even carry a biblical book with me when I stand in line at a movie theater.

I hope that answers your question!

 

[beloved57]

Your series "Made us dead to the Law!" was an excellent study on that topic, all 8 parts! (finally finished ☺)

The Lord richly bless you!

~~~~~

Praise Him !

 

[beloved57]

The redeemed of the Lord shall return ! 3

The redeemed of the Lord shall return ! 3

Isa 59:20

20 And the Redeemer[Jesus Christ] shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.

In other words, the blessed results and effects of the Redeemer coming, unto those He came to specifically Redeem, Israel Lk 1:68, the effects it shall render is that they shall turn from transgression ! If we dont Turn from Transgression [to include false religion] that is be converted, then Christ did not come to Redeem us, unless the Blessed effects of His Redemptive Blood failed the Purpose of God !

But God forbid that could happen, So the logical conclusion to the Glory of God is that all those who are never turned or converted had no part in Christ's Redemptive Death, For it is also written :

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The Purpose of His Death or giving Himself for us, Namely His Church Eph 5:25 was to Redeem us from all Iniquity, which equates to the same thing as saying " To be turned from Transgression "

Christ's Redemptive Death is suppose to Liberate us from all lawlwssness. Before That, we are holden by our sins Prov 5:22

His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.

That word holden means to be seized, be held, retain !

They are held Paul says Rom 7:6

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Remember God commanded Pharoah to Let His People Go so that they can serve Him ! Ex 8:1

And the Lord spake unto Moses, Go unto Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Let my people go, that they may serve me.

Thats what Christ's Death was Purposed to do, to accomplish, To Turn His People from Transgressions ! Acts 3:26

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus[The Redeemer], sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

This is the fulfillment of Isa 59:20 !

 

[beloved57]

The redeemed of the Lord shall return ! 4

The redeemed of the Lord shall return ! 4

The Death of Christ in its Redemptive Power, its responsible for Blessing all those He died for in that He by it turns them from their iniquity ! Peter Highlights that fact in Preaching the Gospel here Acts 3:24-26

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Now look at Vs 26, whats the Blessing stated ?

Its a Turning them away from their iniquities ! Thats Conversion, or Repentance being effected !

In fact its the same thing Paul stated in Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

In fact, thats the Blessing of Abraham. Remember when God Promised Abraham Gen 12:3

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Well thats what God was promising, that which Peter Preached then Acts 3:24-26.

Notice something also, he calls his hearers the Children of the Prophets and of the Covenant, saying:

saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

This Promise little did Peter realize also belonged to the Gentiles, for Paul quotes the very same verse from Gen 12:3 and applies it to the Gentiles here Gal 3:8

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So that means that the Gentiles were also the Children of the Prophets and of the Covenant as stated in Acts 3:25 !


Folks the fact is, If Christ's death of Redemption does not turn all for whom He died away from their iniquities, it failed the Purpose of God, its Power was frustrated and thwarted,

For Notice Peter said:

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from[apo separation] his iniquities.

That applies to every one of the Children of the Prophets and of the Covenant, every single Person, that Jesus was given a Covenant for Isa 42:6

I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Again, the Gentiles are part of that Covenant People !