ECT Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[tetelestai]

So how many ends?

One.

It happened in 70AD.

The birth of Christ - 70AD were the last days.

It even says so in the KJV:

(Heb 1:2 KJV) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

(Rev 22:10 KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

(Rev 1:1 KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

(Phil 4:5 KJV) Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

(1 Peter 1:20 KJV) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

(1 Peter 2:18 KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

(Rom 16:20 KJV) And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

There are many more.

You have to make the highlighted words in the above verses mean something they do not.

I believe exactly what they say.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

One.

It happened in 70AD.

The birth of Christ - 70AD were the last days.

It even says so in the KJV:

(Heb 1:2 KJV) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

(Rev 22:10 KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

(Rev 1:1 KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

(Phil 4:5 KJV) Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

(1 Peter 1:20 KJV) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

(1 Peter 2:18 KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

(Rom 16:20 KJV) And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

There are many more.

You have to make the highlighted words in the above verses mean something they do not.

I believe exactly what they say.

Is there only one world?

 

[tetelestai]

Is there only one world?

Depends on how you define the word "World".

Let's look at an example from the KJV:

(Luke 2:1 KJV) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.


When this decree was issued by Caesar Augustus, the Mayans were thriving in Central America.

Did the Mayans in Central America pay taxes to Augustus Caesar in Rome?

If not, then "all the world" doesn't really mean "all the world" does it?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Depends on how you define the word "World".

Let's look at an example from the KJV:

(Luke 2:1 KJV) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.


When this decree was issued by Caesar Augustus, the Mayans were thriving in Central America.

Did the Mayans in Central America pay taxes to Augustus Caesar in Rome?

If not, then "all the world" doesn't really mean "all the world" does it?

By whom he created the worlds
Neither in this world, nor the world to come

How many?

 

[tetelestai]

By whom he created the worlds
Neither in this world, nor the world to come

How many?

You're doing your Johnny W impersonation.

Did the Mayans in Central America pay taxes to Caesar Augustus?

If not, what does "all the world" mean in Luke 2:1 KJV?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You're doing your Johnny W impersonation.

More than one?

 

[Danoh]

Depends on how you define the word "World".

Let's look at an example from the KJV:

(Luke 2:1 KJV) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.


When this decree was issued by Caesar Augustus, the Mayans were thriving in Central America.

Did the Mayans in Central America pay taxes to Augustus Caesar in Rome?

If not, then "all the world" doesn't really mean "all the world" does it?

Lol, quit with the Dispensational examples already.

 

[tetelestai]

By whom he created the worlds

(Heb 1:2 NIV) ... and through whom also he made the universe.

Neither in this world, nor the world to come

(Matt 12:32 NIV) ....either in this age or in the age to come.

How many?

You're embarrassing yourself with your KJVO.

 

[tetelestai]

More than one?

The KJV of Luke 2:1 says "all the world" payed taxes to Caesar Augustus.

We know that isn't true, when "world" is defined as the entire world, because we know the Mayans did't pay taxes to Caesar. Neither did the Chinese, Japanese, Indians, and many other people of the world.

A simple modern translation of the verse clarifies everything, and leaves no confusion to what the word "World" means in the verse:

(Luke 2:1 NIV) In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world.

 

[Danoh]

The KJV of Luke 2:1 says "all the world" payed taxes to Caesar Augustus.

We know that isn't true, when "world" is defined as the entire world, because we know the Mayans did't pay taxes to Caesar. Neither did the Chinese, Japanese, Indians, and many other people of the world.

A simple modern translation of the verse clarifies everything, and leaves no confusion to what the word "World" means in the verse:

(Luke 2:1 NIV) In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world.

Tel; your own on your over-reliance on the NIV (4th parargraph forward):

http://www.preteristcentral.com/Review of John Noe's Unravelling the End.html

 

[tetelestai]

Tel; your own on your over-reliance of the NIV:

I'm not an NIVonlyist.

However, when it comes to Luke 2:1, the NIV uses: "the entire Roman World", which describes who the decree issued by Caesar Augustus was for better than the KJV does.

The decree was not literally for "all the world".

That doesn't mean the KJV is wrong, it just means the NIV more clearly describes the event, and prevents confusion in thinking that it was for every person on planet earth.

 

[Danoh]

I'm not an NIVonlyist.

However, when it comes to Luke 2:1, the NIV uses: "the entire Roman World", which describes who the decree issued by Caesar Augustus was for better than the KJV does.

The decree was not literally for "all the world".

That doesn't mean the KJV is wrong, it just means the NIV more clearly describes the event, and prevents confusion in thinking that it was for every person on planet earth.

Problem is "entire Roman" is not only not in either Greek text, but is not italicized in the NIV.

Besides, the original there is not only based on when it was written - during the Roman Empire - but given that "world that then was."

The NIV not only attempts to do its reader's thinking for them, but poorly.

Let each reader get in there and solve these things for himself, Acts 17:11.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Solomon and Paul were speaking of GOD's immensity, not that He couldn't be in a temple in any sense.
GOD's being cannot be limited to any particular place, but His presence can certainly be in a stone temple, if He so chooses.



Exo 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

2Ch 7:1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.
2Ch 7:2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD'S house.

Eze 43:4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
Eze 43:5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.
Eze 43:6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever,

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

The Heavenly Jerusalem is not made of stone.

The Lord will not return to live in a Jewish remade stone temple.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I believe that the great tribulation against the children of Israel began with the destruction of the temple in 70 CE and continued throughout the centuries until this time.

Could you explain the prophecies you believe do not fit that?

Tribulation was occurring to the saints before 70AD.

It was Gods wrath in 70 AD and it did not continue for 2000 years.

This has not yet happened--

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

LA

 

[genuineoriginal]

Tribulation was occurring to the saints before 70AD.

It was Gods wrath in 70 AD and it did not continue for 2000 years.

Please search the Old Testament for descriptions of how God will pour out His wrath on the children of Israel.
Leviticus 26 is a good starting place.
Then compare those descriptions to what the children of Israel have gone through for the last 2000 years.

This has not yet happened--

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

LA

The punctuation and verse breaks chosen for that verse hide a lot.

The part I have highlighted is the part Jesus quoted in Matthew 24:21.

The Hebrew version of Matthew matches the Hebrew version of Daniel, the Greek version of Daniel matches the Greek version of Matthew.

The fulfillment of this verse began in 70 CE.

 

[tetelestai]

Leviticus 26 is a good starting place.
Then compare those descriptions to what the children of Israel have gone through for the last 2000 years.

Leviticus 26 has nothing to do with the last 2000 years.

Lev 26 was fulfilled when the Assyrians removed the Israelites from the Northern nation, and when the Babylonians took the Jews captive to Babylon.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Leviticus 26 has nothing to do with the last 2000 years.

Lev 26 was fulfilled when the Assyrians removed the Israelites from the Northern nation, and when the Babylonians took the Jews captive to Babylon.

That was the first time that Jerusalem fell and a period of captivity began.

The second time Jerusalem fell began the same way but the period of captivity was for a much longer period of time. This is the great tribulation spoken of by Jesus.

You missed this because you think only the fall of Jerusalem is important.

 

[tetelestai]

That was the first time that Jerusalem fell and a period of captivity began.

Which is what Lev 26 describes.

The second time Jerusalem fell began the same way but the period of captivity was for a much longer period of time.

What "period of captivity"?

Where were the Jews taken captive in 70AD, and by whom?

Where have the Jews been held captive for 2000 years?

This is the great tribulation spoken of by Jesus.

No it's not.

The tribulation that happened lasted 3.5 years.

Read Daniel and Revelation and you will find:

1260 days
42 months
time, times, and half a time

You missed this because you think only the fall of Jerusalem is important.

I didn't miss anything. You think Lev 26 applies to today. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Tribulation was occurring to the saints before 70AD.

It was Gods wrath in 70 AD and it did not continue for 2000 years.

This has not yet happened--

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

LA

Please search the Old Testament for descriptions of how God will pour out His wrath on the children of Israel.
Leviticus 26 is a good starting place.
Then compare those descriptions to what the children of Israel have gone through for the last 2000 years.


The punctuation and verse breaks chosen for that verse hide a lot.

The part I have highlighted is the part Jesus quoted in Matthew 24:21.

The Hebrew version of Matthew matches the Hebrew version of Daniel, the Greek version of Daniel matches the Greek version of Matthew.

The fulfillment of this verse began in 70 CE.

The verse says--

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people.

That did not happen in 70AD.

and the time of trouble is to be --

such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

and

at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

So we that Christ stands up for and delivers everyone whose names are written in the book.

The great tribulation is nothing whatever to do with believers except as to the timing, and the righteous are delivered at that time.

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

1. the persecution of the saints during witness,(and punishment of the unruly)

2.then the return and resurrection,

3.the beginning of Gods Wrath during which time God separates the believers of the last witness, and

4. the completion of His Wrath,

5.The setting up of the Kingdom.

LA

 

[Danoh]

Where do each of you see Michael's standing up? Also "the holy place" the Lord referred to.