ECT Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[genuineoriginal]

What "period of captivity"?

Where were the Jews taken captive in 70AD, and by whom?

Where have the Jews been held captive for 2000 years?

The Jews call it the Diaspora.
Go study it.

The tribulation that happened lasted 3.5 years.

Read Daniel and Revelation and you will find:

1260 days
42 months
time, times, and half a time

Those times are not about the great tribulation.
You have been deceived by Darby, you hypocrite.

I didn't miss anything. You think Lev 26 applies to today. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Leviticus 26 is one of many passages that show what the wrath of God on the children of Israel consists of: Exile from the promised land.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The verse says--

The problem is not what the verse says, the problem is that the verse is comprised of three statements from three different time periods which should have been separated.

The preceding verses are the prophecy about Antiochus Epiphanes, which ended with the Maccabee revolt.
The first part of the following verse is about the end of the rule of Antiochus Epiphanes.

Daniel 12:1a 1a And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:​

The next part of the verse is about the great tribulation, and is the part that Jesus quoted in Matthew 24:21.

Daniel 12:1b 1b and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:​

The final part of the verse is about the time immediately after the great tribulation.

Daniel 12:1c 1c and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.​

People trying to combine those three separate times into a single moment has distorted a lot of Eschatology.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The problem is not what the verse says, the problem is that the verse is comprised of three statements from three different time periods which should have been separated.

The preceding verses are the prophecy about Antiochus Epiphanes, which ended with the Maccabee revolt.
The first part of the following verse is about the end of the rule of Antiochus Epiphanes.

Daniel 12:1a 1a And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:​

The next part of the verse is about the great tribulation, and is the part that Jesus quoted in Matthew 24:21.

Daniel 12:1b 1b and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:​

The final part of the verse is about the time immediately after the great tribulation.

Daniel 12:1c 1c and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.​

People trying to combine those three separate times into a single moment has distorted a lot of Eschatology.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


They three are all speaking of the same time of the end.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Dan 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


LA

 

[genuineoriginal]

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Three separate times, jammed into a single verse.
Maybe you are thinking that "at that time" means something different than "then"?

The three times do not happen at the same time.
The three times happen in succession, first one, then the next, then the last.

Daniel 11:45-12:1a
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
And then shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:

Daniel 12:1b
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

Daniel 12:1c-12:3
and then thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

They three are all speaking of the same time of the end.

No, there were three separate times, jammed into a single verse.

The first time is the conclusion to the previous verses, ending the prophecy of Antiochus Epiphanes.

The second time is the great tribulation.

The third time is the resurrection after the great tribulation.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Three separate times, jammed into a single verse.
Maybe you are thinking that "at that time" means something different than "then"?

The three times do not happen at the same time.
The three times happen in succession, first one, then the next, then the last.

Daniel 11:45-12:1a
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
And then shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:

Daniel 12:1b
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

Daniel 12:1c-12:3
and then thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.



No, there were three separate times, jammed into a single verse.

The first time is the conclusion to the previous verses, ending the prophecy of Antiochus Epiphanes.

The second time is the great tribulation.

The third time is the resurrection after the great tribulation.

You have over two thousand years between the first and last things.

They all refer to the time of the end of the 3.5 years.

Dan 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:

LA

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You're embarrassing yourself with your KJVO.

It is without error, you said.

 

[tetelestai]

It is without error, you said.

It is, but you think "the world to come" means a whole new planet.

In the late 1800's and the first half of the 1900's, a lot of people in America referred to Europe as "the old world". Using your KJVO logic, Europe would be a planet from the past.

You refuse to study, and to understand what the context of "the world to come" means, and what "worlds" means in their respective passages when taken in proper context.

So, yes, you are embarrassing yourself when you pound your chest and say "the KJV says world, and world means world"

 

[lifeisgood]

It is, but you think "the world to come" means a whole new planet.

Not the way you're thinking.

There has only existed one planet earth, and there will only exist one planet earth. Ever.

 

[tetelestai]

The Jews call it the Diaspora.
Go study it.

That's because the Jews still think a Messiah is going to be sent to them, and that the Promised Land is still theirs.

Those times are not about the great tribulation.
You have been deceived by Darby, you hypocrite.

No, it's what Jesus said, not Darby.

Darby claimed it hasn't happened yet, and you claim it's been happening since 70AD.

Jesus said when you see Jerusalem surrounded by an army, to flee to the hills.

That's exactly what happened in 66AD. The Christians who knew what Jesus said, fled to Pella. For the next 3.5 years destruction and devastation came upon the Jews and Jerusalem.

You must think it's just a big coincidence that what took place from 66AD - 70AD, that culminated with not one stone left standing upon another at the temple lasted exactly 3.5 years.

Leviticus 26 is one of many passages that show what the wrath of God on the children of Israel consists of: Exile from the promised land.

Lev 26 was fulfilled by the Assyrians and Babylonians.

Read the part in Lev 26 about the land getting rest while the Israelites are removed from the land. Has the land been given rest for 2000 years?

(Lev 26:34) Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies;...

Does that sound like what happened to the land from 70AD to today, or 70AD to 1948?

 

[tetelestai]

Not the way you're thinking.

There has only existed one planet earth, and there will only exist one planet earth. Ever.

Um....that's what I'm saying.

STP thinks this planet earth gets destroyed by fire, and then a brand new planet earth is created.

 

[lifeisgood]

And you, tetelestai, say that Satan is still bound more than 2,000 years after 70AD. :think:

 

[lifeisgood]

Um....that's what I'm saying.

STP thinks this planet earth gets destroyed by fire, and then a brand new planet earth is created.

You are not understanding STP.

 

[tetelestai]

And you, tetelestai, say that Satan is still bound more than 2,000 years after 70AD. :think:

That's correct.

Let me know if you see him.

First off, what does the word "soon" mean?

(Rom 16:20) The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

Secondly, he was very active between the cross and 70AD. For example:

(1 Thessalonians 2:18) For we wanted to come to you--certainly I, Paul, did, again and again--but Satan stopped us.

(1 Peter 5:8) Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

 

[tetelestai]

You are not understanding STP.

Maybe you should ask him, because I don't think you understand what he's claiming.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You have over two thousand years between the first and last things.

Yes, history proves that the first of the three times was over two thousand years ago.

They all refer to the time of the end of the 3.5 years.

The 3.5 years is at the end, so it comes between the end of the great tribulation and the time of the resurrection.

Daniel 12:8 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?​

Which matches what Revelation states about the events after the great tribulation.

Revelation 13:5-7 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

That's because the Jews still think a Messiah is going to be sent to them, and that the Promised Land is still theirs.

They are not wrong in those beliefs.
They are only wrong in believing it is not Jesus the Messiah who will be returning.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No, it's what Jesus said, not Darby.

Jesus never said the great tribulation would only be 3 1/2 years long, Darby said that.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

It is, but you think "the world to come" means a whole new planet.

In the late 1800's and the first half of the 1900's, a lot of people in America referred to Europe as "the old world". Using your KJVO logic, Europe would be a planet from the past.

You refuse to study, and to understand what the context of "the world to come" means, and what "worlds" means in their respective passages when taken in proper context.

So, yes, you are embarrassing yourself when you pound your chest and say "the KJV says world, and world means world"

You assume incorrectly.

And I still cannot get an answer from you.

 

[tetelestai]

You assume incorrectly.

What am I assuming incorrectly?

And I still cannot get an answer from you.

I've answered your question over and over again.

The literal physical world does not end. It is the "ages" that end.

You don't like my answer, so you will keep asking "how many ends".

 

[tetelestai]

They are not wrong in those beliefs.

They are wrong on both counts.

They are only wrong in believing it is not Jesus the Messiah who will be returning.

Again, wrong