No; your question had to do with your "one size fits all" supposed "figure of speech" template.
In this understanding of yours, Rome was the Army of Christ. Nothing more than the RCC origin of Preterism.
ECT Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine
- Thread starter ZacharyB
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No; your question had to do with your "one size fits all" supposed "figure of speech" template.
In this understanding of yours, Rome was the Army of Christ. Nothing more than the RCC origin of Preterism.
It's not a "one size fits all".
I'm simply saying we find an example in the OT where God says He would ride a swift cloud into Egypt to unleash His wrath.
We know from history, that it was the Assyrian army who invaded Egypt back then, and not literally God Himself.
Yet, when we apply the same symbolism to the first century, you say it can't be the same thing.
No, I have never said that. I never said Rome was the army of Christ.
God used the Roman army of the first century the same way He used the Assyrian army in the mid 600's BC.
genuineoriginal
New member
Thank you for the response.
The promised Messiah was to do two contradictory things.
The Messiah was to suffer and die for others.
The Messiah was to rise up as king and rule the restored kingdom to Israel.
The Rabbis before the time of Jesus discussed these things.
Their conclusions were not correct, but they do explain some of the thoughts that were going on during the time of the Gospels.
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Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin Folio 98a
. . .
R. Johanan also said: The son of David will come only in a generation that is either altogether righteous or altogether wicked. 'in a generation that is altogether righteous,' — as it is written, Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever.30 'Or altogether wicked,' — as it is written, And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor;31 and it is [elsewhere] written, For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it.32
R. Alexandri said: R. Joshua b. Levi pointed out a contradiction. it is written, in its time [will the Messiah come], whilst it is also written, I [the Lord] will hasten it!33 — if they are worthy, I will hasten it: if not, [he will come] at the due time. R. Alexandri said: R. Joshua opposed two verses: it is written, And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven34 whilst [elsewhere] it is written, [behold, thy king cometh unto thee … ] lowly, and riding upon an ***!35 — if they are meritorious, [he will come] with the clouds of heaven;36 if not, lowly and riding upon an ***.
. . .
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Jesus is the promised Messiah, and as such will redeem the children of Israel.Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin Folio 98a
. . .
R. Johanan also said: The son of David will come only in a generation that is either altogether righteous or altogether wicked. 'in a generation that is altogether righteous,' — as it is written, Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever.30 'Or altogether wicked,' — as it is written, And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor;31 and it is [elsewhere] written, For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it.32
R. Alexandri said: R. Joshua b. Levi pointed out a contradiction. it is written, in its time [will the Messiah come], whilst it is also written, I [the Lord] will hasten it!33 — if they are worthy, I will hasten it: if not, [he will come] at the due time. R. Alexandri said: R. Joshua opposed two verses: it is written, And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven34 whilst [elsewhere] it is written, [behold, thy king cometh unto thee … ] lowly, and riding upon an ***!35 — if they are meritorious, [he will come] with the clouds of heaven;36 if not, lowly and riding upon an ***.
. . .
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The first redemption is the redemption of the people. Leviticus 25:47-55.
The second redemption is the redemption of the land. Leviticus 25:23-24.
When Jesus came to the wicked generation lowly and riding on a donkey, He came to redeem the people.
When Jesus returns to a righteous generation with the clouds of heaven, He will come to redeem the land.
Jesus said their redemption would happen when they would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds:
(Luke 21:28) "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
genuineoriginal
New member
That is the second redemption.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Redeemed/redemption is always referring to the same thing, no matter the context, right?
But for His having temporarily turned from the Prophetic aspect of His Two-Fold Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery, you'd appear right and yet still be off - Israel's redemption to deliver them from their enemies, as Prophesied was to have been the case, never drew nigh.
Its what you have yet to solve for due to your picking and choosing of types where they will make your Preterism work.
Israel was often punished and then delivered from same. Why? Why would He turn from them "in my wrath a little while"?
"For" as Moses reminded the LORD the first time He threatened to destroy them "they are beloved for the father's sakes."
Often, I'll read your posts, and be reminded of the LORD's wisdom in having tested Moses in that way so soon long quest ahead, with what would turn out to be one heck of a gainsaying people, lol.
Only for the God of their fathers to throw in the towel after He says otherwise - again - in Matt. thru Romans; Hebrews thru Revelation?
Nah, Tel. No can do, brother. Well, at least you believe 1 Cor. 15:1-4. I'm grateful for that much for ya. Hopefully, so do your loved ones.
When He comes to "sit on the throne of His" 1 Peter 1:11 "glory that should follow" Matt.19:28; 25:31.
There was no "temporary turned from"
Your Plan B theory is not backed by scripture.
Nowhere in the Bible does God say He's putting something on hold. This "temporary" and "Plan B" stuff is Dispensational propaganda needed to support Darby's theory of a secret parenthetical people that get raptured away right before God picks back up again with Israel.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
On record, you don't believe in any gaps?
Yep - no Plan B. Only ONE Two-Fold Purpose.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:up:
Not when it contradicts other passages in the Bible.
For example God delivered the Israelites out of Egypt. Instead of them entering the Promised Land directly from Egypt, God made them wander in the desert for 40 years. You could call that a gap.
The question is whether Daniel's 70 weeks had a gap or not.
No one knows. There's a thousand different explanations ("thousand" is hyperbole for you Millennialists :chuckle
on Daniel's 70 weeks.The reason I can't except a 2,000 year gap is all the verses in the NT that contain "soon", "near", "these last days", etc, and Jesus three times telling the people He was talking to that they would see Him coming before they passed away.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
A gap is a gap.
Er, no.
You can't compare a 2,000 year gap to a 40 year gap, and say the words "soon", "near", "these last days", etc apply to both gaps.
heir
TOL Subscriber
So you accept it?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Never mind the HUGE gap between His turn from the Gentiles in His wrath, in Gen. 11, Rom. 1 and His turning to deal with them DIRECTLY one more after all that millennia, Acts 17, Rom. 3, etc.
And there are other VERY lengthy gaps in Scripture besides this "times of this (Gentile) ignorance."
Nope
You're 2,000 year gap is contrary to scripture.
Jesus, Peter, John, the writer of Hebrews, and even Paul made it clear that the end of the ages was in the first century.
(1 Cor 10:11) These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
So how many ends?