ECT Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[tetelestai]

but the fulfillment is always physical.

Nope.

You keep saying this over and over again, despite the two verses I keep showing you that were not fulfilled physically.

Did JTB literally (physically) pave a straight road in the desert for God?

Did every mountain and hill literally become low during the ministry of JTB?

Why do you keep ignoring these questions?

Deuteronomy 18:22
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

There is nothing in the above verse that precludes a prophecy being fulfilled spiritually by Christ Jesus.

Zechariah prophesied that living water would flow out of Jerusalem. Jesus said those who have faith in Him, out of their bellies flow living water.

If you stopped looking at the flesh, you would see that the prophecy was fulfilled spiritually.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Nope.

You keep saying this over and over again, despite the two verses I keep showing you that were not fulfilled physically.

The verses were fulfilled physically.

Did JTB literally (physically) pave a straight road in the desert for God?
Did every mountain and hill literally become low during the ministry of JTB?

Did a ram fight a goat?
Or did two empires fight each other?

The physical manifestation of the allegories in the prophecy is what happened when the two empires collided, not a block-head's insistence on a literal ram fighting a literal goat.

Why do you keep ignoring these questions?

You seem to want to refuse to believe they were fulfilled physically.

Matthew 3:3 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.​

You ask if John literally paved a road?
That is not what the verse says he will do.
The verse says John the Baptist will call out to others to follow the way of the LORD.
He did that.
You ask if mountains and hills became low during the ministry of John the Baptist?
You missed the entire verse, which is not talking about John the Baptist but about Jesus.
Jesus raised up the humble (valleys) and brought down the proud (hills and mountains) with His words.

There is nothing in the above verse that precludes a prophecy being fulfilled spiritually by Christ Jesus.

If the prophecy is fulfilled spiritually but not physically, then the prophecy is not fulfilled at all and is a false prophecy.

Zechariah prophesied that living water would flow out of Jerusalem.

Yes, that will physically happen in the future.
Ezekiel 47:1-10 gives a more detailed account of the river that flows from Jerusalem.
The river is also mentioned in Revelation 22:1-2.

 

[Puppet]

On your list of people who don't follow John Nelson Darby like you do, what does a non-Darby Follower have to do in order to get his or her name in bold text?

I would not touch Darby with a million mile long pole cause he teaches false theologies. Give me a Darby book and I'll burn it in the name of Jesus

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I would not touch Darby with a million mile long pole cause he teaches false theologies. Give me a Darby book and I'll burn it in the name of Jesus

Have you burnt the catholic cathecism?

 

[Puppet]

Have you burnt the catholic cathecism?

Why would I want to own one?

 

[Danoh]

Living water is a phrase used to speak about a body of water that has water coming in and water going out.

A river is living water because it has water coming in and water going out.

Many wells are living water because the water flows in and out of the well.

The dead sea is not living water because it only has water coming in.

A cistern is not living water because it only has water coming in.

Er, no.

Jesus made it clear that "living water" was the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told the woman at the well that if she drank the living water He gave her, she would never thirst again.

Drinking water from a river does not make you never thirst again.

Maybe if you stopped thinking in the flesh, and looked to the spirit, you would see that "living water" is the Holy Spirit, and not water found in rivers, streams, creeks, etc.

Other than fascination with how each side processes things, that I might learn something about how I myself at times keep myself stuck in a "one size fits all" that I might free myself from just a bit further, I no longer have a "not for us" horse on either side of this "race," let alone, either side's need to get the other to cry uncle as if that is the issue.

Frees me up for the following when an actual objectivity is "scored" regardless of side.

Tel, whether you are aware of it or not, you have nevertheless basically affirmed the very basis of the point GO was making.

You do that every so often, though obviously having been after scoring some "winning" point against another's view in counter to their like attempt against yours.

 

[tetelestai]

Jesus raised up the humble (valleys) and brought down the proud (hills and mountains) with His words.

So now you claim "valleys" is symbolic for humble people, and "mountains" is symbolic for proud people.

Yet, when I claim "living water" is symbolic for the Holy Spirit, you accuse me of allegorizing.

If the prophecy is fulfilled spiritually but not physically, then the prophecy is not fulfilled at all and is a false prophecy.

(Jer 31:33) "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts....

The law of Moses was literally written on stone. The new law (The law of the spirit filled life in Christ Jesus) is not written on stones, it is written on the heart.

It is not literally (physically) written on human hearts, it is fulfilled spiritually.

Again, you look to the flesh, and not the spirit.

 

[genuineoriginal]

So now you claim "valleys" is symbolic for humble people, and "mountains" is symbolic for proud people.

Yet, when I claim "living water" is symbolic for the Holy Spirit, you accuse me of allegorizing.

I accuse you of allegorizing when you make the claim that the prophecy was fulfilled spiritually, even though the prophecy you are claiming was fulfilled is the one that speaks of a physical river that comes out of the Temple after the kingdom is restored to earth.

(Jer 31:33) "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts....

The law of Moses was literally written on stone. The new law (The law of the spirit filled life in Christ Jesus) is not written on stones, it is written on the heart.

It is not literally (physically) written on human hearts, it is fulfilled spiritually.

You keep confusing literally with physically.

Every prophecy must be fulfilled physically or it is a false prophecy.

So, where is the law to be found for those in the New Covenant?

 

[tetelestai]

I accuse you of allegorizing when you make the claim that the prophecy was fulfilled spiritually, even though the prophecy you are claiming was fulfilled is the one that speaks of a physical river that comes out of the Temple after the kingdom is restored to earth.

There is not future temple on planet earth.

Neither Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, Luke, or anyone else in the NT ever said a word about a third temple on planet earth.

Jesus said the existing temple (Second Temple) would be destroyed so bad, that not one stone would be left standing upon another stone. That was fulfilled in 70AD.

Jesus never said a thing about a third temple

Because you guys don't understand that Christ Jesus fulfilled the law and prophets, you have to take OT prophecies that were fulfilled, and claim they are unfulfilled.

If that's the case, don't you think Jesus, Paul, Peter or at least on person in the NT would have said a peep about a third temple?

 

[tetelestai]

Every prophecy must be fulfilled physically or it is a false prophecy.

You keep saying that, but you have nothing to base it on.

So, where is the law to be found for those in the New Covenant?

It's the Law of the Spirit filled life in Christ Jesus.

(Rom 8:2 KJV) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The Law of the spirit filled life in Christ Jesus is the law that is written on the hearts of believers today.

HINT: it's not physical.

 

[genuineoriginal]

There is not future temple on planet earth.

The prophecies state that there will be a future temple on planet earth.

Why don't you believe them?

Because you guys don't understand that Christ Jesus fulfilled the law and prophets, you have to take OT prophecies that were fulfilled, and claim they are unfulfilled.

I also take New Testament prophecies that claim the same thing as the Old Testament prophecies, and from them I understand that there are Old Testament prophecies that are still waiting to be fulfilled.

If that's the case, don't you think Jesus, Paul, Peter or at least on person in the NT would have said a peep about a third temple?

Paul spoke about it in 2 Thessalonians.
John spoke about it in Revelation.

 

[tetelestai]

The prophecies state that there will be a future temple on planet earth.

No they don't

Why don't you believe them?

Because there are none

I also take New Testament prophecies that claim the same thing as the Old Testament prophecies,

There are no NT prophecies that claim the same thing as OT prophecies.

Paul spoke about it in 2 Thessalonians.
John spoke about it in Revelations.

Nope.

There is nothing about a third temple anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Brother Vinny]

John spoke about it in Revelations.

Arrgh. People who pluralize "Revelation" in reference to the biblical book are right up there with those who don't flush after dropping a deuce.

No offense.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Arrgh. People who pluralize "Revelation" in reference to the biblical book

Fixed.
(Normally I don't make that mistake).

 

[Brother Vinny]

Fixed.
(Normally I don't make that mistake).

I hear it most often on television. I don't get it. They can get 1000 points of doctrine off, and I chalk it up to typical Hollywood ignorance. They add that "s", though, and it's like nails on a chalkboard.

 

[Danoh]

You keep saying that, but you have nothing to base it on.

So, where is the law to be found for those in the New Covenant?

It's the Law of the Spirit filled life in Christ Jesus.

(Rom 8:2 KJV) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The Law of the spirit filled life in Christ Jesus is the law that is written on the hearts of believers today.

HINT: it's not physical.

Nope - not even what that passage is talking about. But, yours is after all, and offshoot of Reformed Theology.

Here, have some Pauline Grace...

Romans 8:

1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What condemnation? Attempting to serve in one's own strength only to find oneself at the mercy of 7: 24's "body of this death!"

Romans 7 on certain operating principles, or laws, the Law had been meant to set off - certain operating principles, as in when we say "the law of gravity," for example:

21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:

1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

"For the law of the Spirit" - the operating principle - "of life in Christ Jesus" - "hath made me free from the law" - from the operating principle - "of sin and death."

The one principle that made the one thing impossible was rendered inoperative by the other principle, that the impossible be made possible.

3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

As when the law of combustion enabled breaking free of the law of gravity, and this, via the law of equal, but opposite, force.

In fact, a pull of gravity of sorts, is what the following is actually talking about - the pull of gravity that is attempt at service in the flesh; that giving into that renders service unable to be rendered as intended - in the spirit:

5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Take those lead weights off (service in your own strength out of some sort of a "must keep the Law" in one way or another) and you'll be able to serve God!

Galatians 5:

16. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

 

[tetelestai]

Take those lead weights off (service in your own strength out of some sort of a "must keep the Law" in one way or another) and you'll be able to serve God!

When the priesthood changed, the law changed.

I'm not under the law.

The old law (Mosaic Law) has been replaced by a new law (The spirit filled life in Christ Jesus).

(Gal 5:18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

(Eph 5:18) Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit,

 

[Danoh]

When the priesthood changed, the law changed.

I'm not under the law.

The old law (Mosaic Law) has been replaced by a new law (The spirit filled life in Christ Jesus).

(Gal 5:18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

(Eph 5:18) Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit,

The companion of Eph. 5:18 makes it obvious Paul is saying be filled with the Word...

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

See also John 6:63.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The prophecies state that there will be a future temple on planet earth.

.

Any future temple of stone would not be the Temple of Gods dwelling place.

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

LA

 

[steko]

Any future temple of stone would not be the Temple of Gods dwelling place.

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

LA

Solomon and Paul were speaking of GOD's immensity, not that He couldn't be in a temple in any sense.
GOD's being cannot be limited to any particular place, but His presence can certainly be in a stone temple, if He so chooses.



Exo 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

2Ch 7:1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.
2Ch 7:2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD'S house.

Eze 43:4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
Eze 43:5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.
Eze 43:6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever,

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.