(Ecc 1:4) Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.
(Psalm 78:69) And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.
ECT Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine
- Thread starter ZacharyB
- Start date
(Ecc 1:4) Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.
(Psalm 78:69) And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.
Paul is speaking about being "in Christ".
Paul tells his audience they were raised with Christ, sit with Christ, and when Christ comes they come with him.
They don't literally come with Christ, anymore than they literally were resurrected with Christ, or literally sat with Christ.
Paul wrote his letter about 10-15 years before 70AD. Paul was looking forward to it, and told his audience to look forward to it.
70AD is when it happened.
musterion
Well-known member
musterion
Well-known member
No. Paul and the Colossians were already dead, buried, raised, ascended and seated in Christ. He was speaking of something yet to come; something which has not happened yet.
God says to reckon upon all of that as fact. That you choose to reject it is your problem.
Nothing like Christ appearing in glory or believers appearing with Him happened in 70.
You are false.
"heavens and earth" refer to the old covenant.
"new heavens and new earth" refer to the new covenant.
(Deut 30:19) This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
Did Moses literally call "the heavens and the earth" as witnesses?
It hadn't happened yet when Paul wrote Colossians.
However, it happened shortly after Paul wrote Colossians.
It happened in 70AD
Believers didn't literally appear with Him, just like believers weren't literally resurrected with Him.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Zachary B,
I seems you overbusy trying to refute and therefore losing sight of what scripture teaches.
The event of I Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
and the other scriptures referring to that same event, (this event which only believers in this age of grace are involved,) is not the same event which Jesus spoke of in the gospels.
(note verse 18, we are to be comforted by these words, where is the comfort if, we having been freed from the law and the sins thereof, are still going to have to endure the wrath?)
That which refers to Israel whether in the law or in the gospels or in the book of Revelation is an entirely different event which applies to those under the law.
This age of grace we are now in was kept secret since the world began and was revealed, by revelation, and written down by the Apostle Paul, Ephesians 3.
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Romans 16:
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
If the events you refer to in the gospels is the same event described in I Thessalonians 4:13-17, then the mystery was not a mystery, or it was not kept secret since the world began.
Jesus was not describing the events of I Thes 4, but an event that refers to those outside the revelation of this mystery we live in which was made known, not to Jesus while on this earth, but to the apostle Paul and others, (Paul was the one God had write it down)
The mystery was kept hid, until it was revealed to the apostle Paul, the events of the wrath and tribulation were not kept hid.
We are saved from the wrath to come.
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
I Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Christians are not subject to the wrath, we were saved from the wrath, we will already be with the Lord when those event start
I seems you overbusy trying to refute and therefore losing sight of what scripture teaches.
The event of I Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
and the other scriptures referring to that same event, (this event which only believers in this age of grace are involved,) is not the same event which Jesus spoke of in the gospels.
(note verse 18, we are to be comforted by these words, where is the comfort if, we having been freed from the law and the sins thereof, are still going to have to endure the wrath?)
That which refers to Israel whether in the law or in the gospels or in the book of Revelation is an entirely different event which applies to those under the law.
This age of grace we are now in was kept secret since the world began and was revealed, by revelation, and written down by the Apostle Paul, Ephesians 3.
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Romans 16:
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
If the events you refer to in the gospels is the same event described in I Thessalonians 4:13-17, then the mystery was not a mystery, or it was not kept secret since the world began.
Jesus was not describing the events of I Thes 4, but an event that refers to those outside the revelation of this mystery we live in which was made known, not to Jesus while on this earth, but to the apostle Paul and others, (Paul was the one God had write it down)
The mystery was kept hid, until it was revealed to the apostle Paul, the events of the wrath and tribulation were not kept hid.
We are saved from the wrath to come.
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
I Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Christians are not subject to the wrath, we were saved from the wrath, we will already be with the Lord when those event start
That's not true.
Jesus spoke of mysteries that had been kept secret
(Matt 13:35) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Paul tells us that the mysteries were given to not just him, but to the Saints:
(Col 1:26) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Paul was a me, me, me, my, my, my kind of guy. Paul used the phrase "my Lord" numerous times when telling others of the Lord. Just like Paul called the gospel "my gospel" when telling others about the gospel.
If you disagree, please tell us the mysteries Jesus preached that were kept secret since the foundation of the world?
genuineoriginal
New member
That is as stupid as saying that the 70 year tribulation prophesied in Jeremiah happened from 589 BCE - 587 BCE, the three year period needed by the Babylonians to capture Jerusalem.
The fall of Jerusalem in 587 BCE only began the 70 year tribulation.
In the same manner, the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE only began the great tribulation, the time of the Gentiles, the time of Jacob's Trouble.
You're confusing the two events.
Jeremiah prophesied a 70 year captivity.
Daniel prophesied 70 weeks (490 years) that began when the 70 year captivity ended.
See above
No, you're wrong.
The great and final tribulation on the Jews began in 66AD and ended in 70AD. It lasted 3.5 years, which is what was prophesied.
70AD was the end of the old covenant, the end of the ages, the end of the old heaven and the old earth.
genuineoriginal
New member
No, I am not the one that is confused.
The 70 year prophecy in Jeremiah began with the first destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BCE.
The great tribulation prophecy in the Bible began with the second destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE.
There is no place in the Bible is the great tribulation prophesied to be only 3.5 years long.
You are confusing the great tribulation with something else.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
"by whom he created the worlds"
"neither in this world, nor the world to come"
So, how many ends of the world?
OCTOBER23
New member
Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians,
and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.
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JESUS promised to take Christians to a place in God's house ,
the NEW JERUSALEM , to a PLACE PREPARED for them.
And that PLACE PREPARED is in Revelation 3 and Rev 12 for 2 women (churches)
The Philadelphians will be Raptured First BEFORE SATAN IS CAST DOWN
and the Laodiceans will be Raptured afterwards.
JESUS, The Lord God of the Old Testament took the Hebrews on Eagles Wings.
John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
--Now the Question is the Timeline of Satan being Cast down which can be found on the Internet regarding Daniel's Prophecies.
and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
JESUS promised to take Christians to a place in God's house ,
the NEW JERUSALEM , to a PLACE PREPARED for them.
And that PLACE PREPARED is in Revelation 3 and Rev 12 for 2 women (churches)
The Philadelphians will be Raptured First BEFORE SATAN IS CAST DOWN
and the Laodiceans will be Raptured afterwards.
JESUS, The Lord God of the Old Testament took the Hebrews on Eagles Wings.
John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
--Now the Question is the Timeline of Satan being Cast down which can be found on the Internet regarding Daniel's Prophecies.
Once again, your KJVO causes more problems for you.
(Heb 1:2 NIV) but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
(Matt 12:32 NIV) Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
It's "age" not "world"
The end of the ages happened in 70AD.
Which is why Paul said to the people he was talking to: "for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come"
KJVO + MAD = :dizzy:
Right Divider
Body part
"That verse doesn't say what it says!"- Amy Linniels
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It's not literal.
Proof it's not:
Prophecy:
(Zech 14:8) On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.
Fulfillment:
(John 7:38) Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them."
If Zech 14 verse 8 isn't literal, why would you think verse verse 4 is?
You Dispensationalists just don't get the transition from flesh to spirit when the covenants changed. You guys are stuck in the old covenant.
"Oh Lord is that you in Rome's Army, that Tel's delusion has you in..."
Right Divider
Body part
Zechariah 14:8 is literal, you're just to deceived to understand it.
Your "interpretation" of scripture so ridiculous it's amazing. You turn scripture into your own personal fairy tale. Where did you learn this trash?
I like how you IGNORE the ENTIRE passage that I gave you and INSTEAD picked out your ONE favorite verse so that you could MATCH a COUPLE of WORDS with ONE other verse in another passage. The JW's and Mormons are very proud of you. As are the Pentecostals and the "Word Of Faith teachers".
You have an incredible disgust for God's Word.
YOU were NEVER part of the Old Covenant and YOU are ALSO not part of the New. These are between God and Israel and not some fanciful version of them that your mentors dreamed up in the depraved and evil little minds.
genuineoriginal
New member
That is a prophecy that will be fulfilled literally when Jesus returns to earth.
You can't accept it as a literal prophecy because you think Jesus already returned.