ECT Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Danoh]

That's my point.

You MADists go on and on about how only Romans to Philemon is for believers today, but then we see (as you just proved) that certain passages (i.e. Romans 1:16) are not for believers today.

Every MADist on this thread thus far (regardless of "camp"), has been relying on much more than Romans thru Philemon in addressing all sorts of issues you and some on here have misinterpreted into your own ideas. You know that.

No; you are the one going on and on concluding MADists mean that only Romans to Philemon is for today.

I don't. My own assertion is that "all Scripture... is profitable, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction" in short, "for instruction in righteousness, 2 Tim. 3:16-17, in light of Romans thru Philemon, 2 Tim. 2:15.

And, only one word in Romans 1:16 is not for today. The word "first."

But, go ahead, continue to prove what you always do; that when it comes to Dispensationalism in general all you know how to do is read your conclusions into its assertions.

 

[tetelestai]

And, only one word in Romans 1:16 is not for today. The word "first."

(Rom 15:27) ...For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

Do you share your material blessings with Jews today?

If not, then is Romans 15:27b not for today?

 

[Danoh]

Her point exactly.
Thank you.

No; my point is I find I don't need them; not that they are corrupt.

Nuff said.

 

[Danoh]

(Rom 15:27) ...For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

Do you share your material blessings with Jews today?

If not, then is Romans 15:27b not for today?

I know; no part of this, that I posted earlier - "Within the Mid-Acts I hold to yes, much, though not all of Romans; is still for today" - was clear to you.

But, just as you and yours do not always see eye to eye on all things; others of Mid-Acts on here, may or may not hold a different view.

And since this is such an issue for you; make sure you ask each and every one of them, now :chuckle:

 

[tetelestai]

much, though not all of Romans; is still for today"

Why is it then, when me, or someone else, says the same thing about Hebrews, James, 1 & 2 Peter, 1,2 & 3 John, Jude, and Revelation, you guys fly off the handle and eliminate the entire book as not FOR the BOC today?

 

[steko]

David is the literal ancestor of Christ and sat on a literal throne of authority over the twelve tribes, in the land. Solomon sat on his father David's throne, and David's greater son, the Lord Jesus, will likewise sit on His father David's throne.
Your spiritualizing of Scripture is unjustified and perverted.

Not the first 7.5 years.

(2 Sam 5:5) In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months, and in Jerusalem he reigned over all Israel and Judah thirty-three years.

David only ruled over Judah the first 7.5 years, then he ruled over the 12 tribes 33 years.

If you understood this, and understood the typology, you wouldn't be so confused.

That's all beside the point.
I was establishing by Scripture how the throne of David is defined vs GOD's universal throne in heaven in which Christ presently is seated....until.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

LA, I truly tire of your silly talk here. You never move on to God's CURRENT dispensation. You ALWAYS quote for God's work TO and THROUGH Israel. You have no idea that is really taught in scripture and YET you think that you're so smart and so spiritual.

I hope that someday you come to the knowledge of the truth.

Indeed, what a wasted life for LA diligently slaving and working hard to get into a church that he can never get into. And then brazenly dismissing the gospel and the church that is welcoming him with open arms. I'm sure Satan is rejoicing and calling him a chump.

 

[steko]

LA, I truly tire of your silly talk here. You never move on to God's CURRENT dispensation. You ALWAYS quote for God's work TO and THROUGH Israel. You have no idea that is really taught in scripture and YET you think that you're so smart and so spiritual.

I hope that someday you come to the knowledge of the truth.

Indeed, what a wasted life for LA diligently slaving and working hard to get into a church that he can never get into. And then brazenly dismissing the gospel and the church that is welcoming him with open arms. I'm sure Satan is rejoicing and calling him a chump.

Indeed!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

How about the mortal people living side by side with the immortal people during the alleged "millennium"?

Do you believe that?

The Lord Jesus certainly did it for 40 days.
why is the idea ludicrous?

 

[Danoh]

Why is it then, when me, or someone else, says the same thing about Hebrews, James, 1 & 2 Peter, 1,2 & 3 John, Jude, and Revelation, you guys fly off the handle and eliminate the entire book as not FOR the BOC today?

I'll answer you, for the sake of others reading these exchanges; not so much for you, as it is obvious your ears were stopped up by what you long ago read into a thing and ran with.

Here; some Hebrews 5, for its Basic Principle applies in Genesis thru Revelation - all 66 Books, where dealing with the likes of your false notions and misstatements is concerned:

12. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of
strong meat.
13. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

I; a Body member who's study approach is more or less MADist, have just applied a part of Hebrews.

In short, o ever misrepresenting one; there is a difference (the "things that differ" principle) between a general rule of thumb (principle) applying throughout all 66 Books, and how it does.

The MADist can apply these kinds of things that differ principles all day long, not violate the Scripture, and yet; apparently right past your supposed understanding, given your ever consistently obvious determined, mis-understanding, of the MADist's intended sense, and or application.

 

[tetelestai]

I was establishing by Scripture how the throne of David is defined

You left out key points.

First you left out that for the first 7.5 years David ruled over just Judah.

You also left out the fact that while David ruled, he set up his own tabernacle with the Ark of the Covenant in it while the tabernacle of Moses stood. David offered a sacrifice when he set up his tabernacle. The sacrifice was against the Law of Moses, only priests from the tribe of Levi could do such a sacrifice.

Israelites, Jews, and Gentiles could come into David's tabernacle and worship God. There was no requirement, they didn't have to be clean, circumcised, etc.

At the same time people worshiped God in David's tabernacle, the High Priest and the Levites carried out their priestly duties at the tabernacle of Moses.

Again, if you understood these things, and then compared them to what happened in the first century, you wouldn't claim the following verse is the yet future, like Dispensationalists do:

(Acts 15:16) "'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Indeed, what a wasted life for LA diligently slaving and working hard to get into a church that he can never get into. And then brazenly dismissing the gospel and the church that is welcoming him with open arms. I'm sure Satan is rejoicing and calling him a chump.

I am already in the Church and free and resting.

I never slave, though am one. I continue in the struggle among the believers for the high calling of God.

Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

LA

 

[tetelestai]

The MADist can apply these kinds of things that differ principles all day long, not violate the Scripture,

MADists don't even understand the difference between a Jew and an Israelite.

You guys think all Israelites are Jews.

You guys wouldn't know what "the things that differ" is if it hit you over the head.

 

[tetelestai]

why is the idea ludicrous?

For one, it's not in the Bible.

I asked steko to show where in the Bible it says mortal people would one day live with immortal people?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Yes He is--

Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.




Christ never changes Thrones

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Christ's Throne remains in the Heavenly City, not moving into an another earthly one--

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.







You have it all wrong.

The house of Jacob is the House of Faith not defined by the flesh of the OT.

With what else could God give men pre-Christ, their understanding.

The things of the law were but shadows of the greater things to come.

The David of the OT was a type of Christ as was David's Throne and Kingdom as Peter preached above in Acts ch 2.

Christ Himself tells us this---

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

LA

You can't have it both ways.

When Christ Jesus ascended to Heaven, He sat at the right hand of God the Father, on God the Father's throne.

That is what I said.

Matt 25:31 makes it clear that Christ Jesus was to sit there UNTIL He returned.

So, if you believe Christ Jesus did not return yet, then He is still sitting at the side of God the Father on God the Father's throne.

You make a play on words.

Jesus was standing when Steven saw Him as was the case in Rev.chs 4 and 5.

Jesus sitting on His Fathers Throne speaks of a position of authority equal to the Father over the new creation of whom He is the first---

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Jesus made it clear in Matt 24:34 that He would return before the generation of His contemporaries passed away. That happened in 70AD, and that is when Christ Jesus sat on His own throne in the Kingdom of God.

Jesus makes it clear that He ascended to Heaven and sat on His Fathers Throne as recorded in Acts ch 1 but He went there shortly after His resurrection when He could not yet be touched.

Why give events for which you have no scripture. You are not just misinterpreting them, you are inventing them.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

For one, it's not in the Bible.

I asked steko to show where in the Bible it says mortal people would one day live with immortal people?

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

It was necessary that the gospel was carried into all of the world by people.

In the future event the carriers will have been face to face with Christ.

Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

LA

 

[tetelestai]

Why give events for which you have no scripture.

I gave you scripture.

Here it is again:

(Matt 25:31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I gave you scripture.

Here it is again:

(Matt 25:31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

You claim that to have occurred in ad 70???

 

[tetelestai]

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

It was necessary that the gospel was carried into all of the world by people.

In the future event the carriers will have been face to face with Christ.

Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

LA

There is nothing about mortal people living with immortal people in the passages you gave.

 

[tetelestai]

You claim that to have occurred in ad 70???

Yes, because Jesus made it clear that He would come before the generation of His contemporaries passed away.

Jesus told the people He was talking to that some of them would not taste death until they saw the Son of Man coming in the clouds.