Jesus is God !

[keypurr]

On this point, we could be splitting hairs. Note that only in the gospel of John does Jesus claim to raise up his own body. Who cares who raised it, since if it was raised according to the power of God, then so be it. If Jesus was indeed a divine Son with such power, and confessed he had the power to do it,...then it would be so, unless one questions the record of John :idunno: - John's writings did undergo some redactions and is a later gospel, with various gnostic undertones.

A Unitarian view is fine,....but if one wants to go a bit further with the divinity of Jesus (as espoused in the Urantia Book),...then Jesus could indeed have raised himself because he is our 'Creator-Son' (a divine Son of high standing, but not being the 'Eternal Son' within the original Trinity), and had such power to do so. This would be where Caino is coming from, with respect to his sense of Christology. We cover aspects of this in the respective thread.

To see 'God' in Jesus is enough, no matter what theological spin, preferential twist or rationale you like to use to conceptualize it. Also if you're not keeping an open mind about it, you're limiting your own self to see and comprehend more about the person of Jesus and the concept of 'Christ' in all its various facets. Your concept of Jesus could be valueless or even unnecessary. Challenge your 'beliefs' if you're courageous enough.



pj

If Jesus raised himself then he was not really dead.
If he did not die our faith is moot.

 

[keypurr]

Don't be 'partial',...or do u have full dentures?




paulie

I got the full set. I take them out to sharpen them now and then.

 

[freelight]

If Jesus raised himself then he was not really dead.
If he did not die our faith is moot.

The material body can die, and the soul-spirit live on,....in that case, I don't see why Jesus couldn't resurrect himself. I see this as a minor technicality, since he was raised by God's power anyways, the power of the Spirit. Now 'how' he did it, may be 'apples' or 'oranges', since no one really knows, except by some kind of 'faith' that it happened. Still, no objective proof exists anywhere anyways that Jesus even rose from the dead, so you're back to assuming things from a subjective plane of faith in some esoteric power behind the 'doing'.



pj

 

[freelight]

I got the full set. I take them out to sharpen them now and then.

Ah, I'd gather you were 'joking' on that point

Just don't eat any sour grapes against those pearly whites




pj

 

[keypurr]

Ah, I'd gather you were 'joking' on that point

Just don't eat any sour grapes against those pearly whites




pj

I joke about a lot of things friend.

But at my age, the originals fall apart.

I got more metal in me than the scrapyard has.

 

[keypurr]

The material body can die, and the soul-spirit live on,....in that case, I don't see why Jesus couldn't resurrect himself. I see this as a minor technicality, since he was raised by God's power anyways, the power of the Spirit. Now 'how' he did it, may be 'apples' or 'oranges', since no one really knows, except by some kind of 'faith' that it happened. Still, no objective proof exists anywhere anyways that Jesus even rose from the dead, so you're back to assuming things from a subjective plane of faith in some esoteric power behind the 'doing'.



pj

To be honest, I seem to disagree with the soul-spirit living on after death. The dead know nothing. I believe in soul sleep.

 

[freelight]

Life after death......

Life after death......

To be honest, I seem to disagree with the soul-spirit living on after death. The dead know nothing. I believe in soul sleep.

Well, that kinda puts that discussion to rest :rip: - although I've written many discourses exploring the concept of 'soul-sleep' and been for a more spiritualist understanding of continuation of consciousness after physical death. There are also some intermediate views in the mix there too....so studies and actual accounts of the afterlife need to be considered on such an important subject, instead of just using a few passages in an antiquated book, as we have NDE's, OBE's, spirit communcations and other phenomena that support 'continuation of consciousness' after death which some researchers say can be scientifically proven. My past thread 'NDE's and the Afterlife' went into great depth on these counts.

Good luck on those dentures




pj

 

[Zeke]

To be honest, I seem to disagree with the soul-spirit living on after death. The dead know nothing. I believe in soul sleep.

The Ancients taught the body was the grave/tomb of the Soul, which is likened to a host for the Divine Seed that lies asleep like a seed in the field/flesh waiting for the Divine rain to awaken it within the body of matter/mary bound to the earth until the Divine Soul/butterfly emerges/resurrects from the old husk of the earthly cocoon.

Which would explain the graves/tombs opening and the saints emerging into the holy city, which would be above Galatians 4:26 where the spiritual spark/conscience was born.

 

[Caino]

If Jesus raised himself then he was not really dead.
If he did not die our faith is moot.

Yes, the problem is the atonement theory that you were taught. Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom to the Jews, not Christ and him crucified. That is why you work so hard to make sure that Jesus was DEAD! Because of your theoretical human sacrifice doctrine/theory.

Put your faith in the gospel of Jesus BEFORE he was killed as opposed to Paul's gospel about Jesus after his gospel was rejected.

So it's clear that your problem with the plain facts of Jesus' words and acts contradict another belief you hold as preached by Paul who never knew Jesus, rather he brought the atonement theory from the Pagan world.

Killing Jesus was in itself a SIN!

 

[Caino]

How did a divine Christ lower himself to become human?
God prepared a BODY for him, that body is Jesus.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Before he became man he was a spirit being like his Father. He is the express image of his Father.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Christ is a created form of God. Early translations speak of to him as an IT.

Joh 1:1 In the begynnyng was the worde, & the worde was with God: and that worde was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the begynnyng with God.
Joh 1:3 All thynges were made by it: and without it, was made nothyng that was made.
Joh 1:4 In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men, (Bishops)



I was not saying that Christ is the Holy Spirit, that another topic. The point I am trying to make is that Jesus was anointed by a spirit called Christ. God created everything through Christ. Jesus became the Christ. Christ is the SON God sent, Jesus is the body God provided. As you can see I think in a different manner than most. But once I was shown that God created his exact image and used it to build the Universe, I see things differently than the standard set by the churches.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Ask yourself what was that POWER?

Exactly! This spirit being didn't die on the cross, his temporary mortal vesture is what died. Then on the third day Jesus returned in a new form that looked like the old form. In this same way the soul of man, the growing spirit being within, does not die but will be given the new form in heaven that Jesus had.

 

[lifeisgood]

If Jesus raised himself then he was not really dead.
If he did not die our faith is moot.

Have you not heard? Have you not read?
You also will not die.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Pierac]

Jesus was both human and divine in one person, having come down to earth to live the God revealing life to his children, he would speak from 2 different natures on different occasions.

Even now, having returned to his rightful place in heaven with all power and authority in heaven and on earth, he would still speak by divine rite and about his paradise Father.

The secondary characterizations saying "God raised him up" are still saying the same thing as "I will raise it up" because Jesus is divine, he never died, his temporary mortal tabernacle died.

Greek philosophy... what you just stated has no basis in both scripture or Hebraic culture.

Everything you said is traditions of men... not scripture you claim to follow!

oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Apple7]

I got some new teeth so I will chew him up. I will sharpen them.

Get some new specs while you're at it, pops...:dunce:

 

[keypurr]

Have you not heard? Have you not read?
You also will not die.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Consider that THE SPIRIT could be your breath.

 

[keypurr]

Jesus is God !

Yes, the problem is the atonement theory that you were taught. Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom to the Jews, not Christ and him crucified. That is why you work so hard to make sure that Jesus was DEAD! Because of your theoretical human sacrifice doctrine/theory.



Put your faith in the gospel of Jesus BEFORE he was killed as opposed to Paul's gospel about Jesus after his gospel was rejected.



So it's clear that your problem with the plain facts of Jesus' words and acts contradict another belief you hold as preached by Paul who never knew Jesus, rather he brought the atonement theory from the Pagan world.



Killing Jesus was in itself a SIN!

Not really, my idea has nothing to do with the atonement theory, I read in the OT that the dead know nothing, they are not conscience. You can not be dead and raise yourself. Why do folks think that their physical spirit will exist before Christ returns to raise them? I look forward for my soul sleep to be awakened by my Lord.

I do not let my traditional teaching rule my thoughts friend.

 

[keypurr]

Exactly! This spirit being didn't die on the cross, his temporary mortal vesture is what died. Then on the third day Jesus returned in a new form that looked like the old form. In this same way the soul of man, the growing spirit being within, does not die but will be given the new form in heaven that Jesus had.

I will give that more thought, but I see the spirit Christ taken the form of man, would that make him a man? I would think so, he had to suffer as a man so he must have died as a man.

I do not like to assume anything but I see nothing to think any other way. We really have no way of knowing if our spirits live on after death. I can see your thinking friend, thats good.

 

[Caino]

I will give that more thought, but I see the spirit Christ taken the form of man, would that make him a man? I would think so, he had to suffer as a man so he must have died as a man.

I do not like to assume anything but I see nothing to think any other way. We really have no way of knowing if our spirits live on after death. I can see your thinking friend, thats good.

For man it is true, our soul is not votitional, self sustaining, wondering about like a ghost waiting to return to the mortal body. Our soul is the express property of the spirit until such a time as God restores the salvaged. I agree, we sleep in death and are entirely at the mercy of God.

But as for the Son incarnate in man, he was more, much more, he was both human and divine in one person. We can see this duel reality in his many sided teachings and quotes about himself. At times he speaks as a man subject to the will of the Father which we are much more comfortable with in a consistent, logical way. But at other times he speaks by divine rite, invested with the power of his own office. This is consistent with his express statement "I have the power to lay down my life and the power to take it up again." Remember, Jesus defined the cross in terms of proving his authority.

 

[lifeisgood]

Consider that THE SPIRIT could be your breath.

'could' DOES NOT count.

 

[Omniskeptical]

I was just using what Jesus said and what he did using his words from the Bible and the subsequent enlightenment of his followers. Athanasius won the day thank God.

What is there to thank him for? He used the shoddiest of the science of his time, religious greek philosophy.

 

[keypurr]

For man it is true, our soul is not votitional, self sustaining, wondering about like a ghost waiting to return to the mortal body. Our soul is the express property of the spirit until such a time as God restores the salvaged. I agree, we sleep in death and are entirely at the mercy of God.

But as for the Son incarnate in man, he was more, much more, he was both human and divine in one person. We can see this duel reality in his many sided teachings and quotes about himself. At times he speaks as a man subject to the will of the Father which we are much more comfortable with in a consistent, logical way. But at other times he speaks by divine rite, invested with the power of his own office. This is consistent with his express statement "I have the power to lay down my life and the power to take it up again." Remember, Jesus defined the cross in terms of proving his authority.

Any power he had was given to him by his God. Christ was a spiritual being before taking the form of man. There is no reason why he did not die as a man for he was a creation being the express image of his God, who is a spirit. God sent him, he came from above. But he lived on earth as a man after he went into Jesus. I know this sound crazy, but I have many verses that have brought me to this point.