Jesus is God !

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
'coulds' on both sides of the fence.....

'coulds' on both sides of the fence.....

'could' DOES NOT count.


Can you offer a certain and proper translation of the word 'spirit' in the passage concerned that absolutely rules out this word meaning 'breath'? Then the same thing can said of your 'translation'.....it 'could' be right but maybe not.

Same boat, different seat.




pj
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Arius is just as praiseworthy.....how u live is what counts....

Arius is just as praiseworthy.....how u live is what counts....

What is there to thank him for? He used the shoddiest of the science of his time, religious greek philosophy.

Caino commends him for his upholding of Jesus full divinity, although the Urantia papers do not identify Jesus as the Eternal Son within the Original Trinity, but being divine in nature as a 'Creator-Son'....an order of divine Sons who proceed from the Original Trinity.

I often side with Arius in historical-philosophical matters as supporting an underdog in the doctrinal battles of the 4th century, since my Christology is so versatile as to include both Unitarian and Trinitarian perspectives, as well as go beyond those constructs to the absolute non-personal aspect of Deity.

Greek philosophy is true insofar as the great philosophers were truly inspired by source to share universal truths and principles which is why many of the early church fathers adopted platonic metaphysics incorporating such into their theology...and naturally so....as these principles were given before Jesus came along.




pj
 

Mashiach Yeshua

New member
The comments, posts and replies are numerous. I will visit more of them later.
For now, I will enter into the conversation.

Let's be frank! If Jesus is God, then Man (humankind) is God, as Jesus was the supposed name of a Man believed to be God Incarnate.

If God is only Transcendent, eternal, infinite, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient (etc). How can a Man, finite being, created, be God the Creator?

So, we come to a dilemma. But this problem can be solved, and will be solved, in whichever way each person applies their capacity and level of receptivity to Receive.

In brief, I will claim Jesus is God, and God is Transcendent. Jesus is the pinnacle and "poster child" of what males and females ought to strive for in order to reflect a human being, a divine being. Jesus indeed is God Incarnate, the microcosm of the Macrocosm; the miniature version of the bigger picture.

The difference I would argue, is not Nature and Essence, but size (dimensions, measurements, proportions). For our bodies are the microcosmic Universe and our minds are the microcosmic Consciousness/Awareness. If the "Son" and the "Father", as well as the "Holy Spirit (Mother)" and the body were equal in size they'd be equal in potential and actualization.

Given their respective portions they are equal in their respective dimensions, although, the Father-Mother being greater is greatly to be praised!

I propose Genesis 1:26-27 & 2:7 to support my claims biblically.
 

Mashiach Yeshua

New member
The word Elohim is used 32 times in Genesis alone, which is the "Beginning", source and origin of creation if we consider the Hebrew language. "Elohim" is a word meaning God, yet another Name, given by Moses in order to describe the various functions of God (an English, universal title). Similar to the Spanish language how some words are particular to male or female gender specific roles and functions. In this way do the Hebrews, particularly Moses in the book of Genesis, describe God (Elohim).

Interesting enough the word "Elohim" also is used to describe the various "faces" and "changes" of God. Whereas Yahweh is used in specific sentences (verses) to illustrate the transcendent, eternal, changeless God. Yahweh is likewise used with a masculine, specific role, thus we have God the Father. Moreover, Yahweh is the English word we create from the Hebrew, "Yod-He-Vau-He" with the addition of the English vowels from "Adonai" in between the Hebrew letters, Plus the "B's" are pronounced with a "V" sound, and "V's" are shifted to a "W" sound-- "Yod-A-He-O-[W]au-A-He" for "Yahovah" which later through the Latin to English centuries of translations becomes "Jehovah". Although, the Hebrews (Jews) typically pronounce and claim the Name "Yahweh".

Scholars are not in agreement on the "actual" Name the Father as in every Tanakh (English Pentateuch, first five Books of Moses) since, say, Moses has had YHVH in the word space with the allusion of the vowels from Adonai filling between the consonants. There are really two opinions for why this occurred. One, because the Jews revered the Greatest Name of God so much that they made extreme attempts to not "use the Name in vain" so a "Tetragrammaton" and "filler word" was used to protect the Rabbi and reader from potential sin. Second, the opinion is that the Jews did not know to or how to access the full power of the Name, and enter relationship with Yahweh. Or, at the very least the Pharisees accessed the Name (the Father) in prayers and invocations but would not permit the people to know the Name.

I am weighing in on the first opinion, and latter half of the second for a blended, more whole view of the dilemma. Later in history of course we get Yeshua (Jesus in Aramaic, the language He spoke which is a dialect of Hebrew) who Knows the Name and thus Knows the Father, and is able to transmit the Name to His disciples that they too might Know the Father. Using the Name was akin to a new birth and spiritual baptism, as Spiritual Forces moves within and behind physical structures at the use of the Name.

Quickly, as for "Yeshua", Jesus is the English translation we get from the Greek "Ii̱soús". If we are Christians, adopted into Judaism, and He were living in the flesh today we would refer to Him as YESHUA, not Jesus or "Ii̱soús", necessarily. Unless we "butchered His name and forced Him to conform to English speaking limitations as we are accustomed to with immigrant names.

The Name Yeshua is fascinating as well. As it is "Yod He Vau He" the Great Name of the Father in Hebrew, with the insertion of the Hebrew letter "Shin" between "He and Vau" for a transition to "Yod-He-Shin-Vau-He". The addition of "Shin" when viewed in writing looks like a rib cage (pictograms) and denotes the Holy Spirit being embodied. Thus we have Yeshua, God Incarnate, a Man embodying God.

Circling back to the Elohim, the word is used nearly everywhere in our English Bible where we see the word God. LORD is substituted for the Tetragrammaton, and Lord for the Name of Yeshua. Why? Because the early Church fathers were Jews and converts into the discipline of Jews and it was custom to revere the Name of God.

If we look closely into a concordance or at online tools to the Hebrew (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible...=Gen&c=1&t=KJV) we find that the Elohim created Everything, in the Beginning! Which in gender specific terms makes logical, natural sense. If the masculine Being and Force impregnates the feminine Consciousness, then the feminine God would give birth to Creation! The Father is not absent, but the Holy Spirit (Mother:Elohim) gave birth to creation. The same is mirrored by humans, and thus we see the physical, natural grounds for our likeness and image being that of Elohim. As Elohim is feminine noun with masculine plural indicating a pregnant womb, or union of phallus and womb.

With all of this said, we see why the different usages in the Names of God, as Moses was in lay terms meticulous and persnickety. As the Jews to follow Him were, by reverence of their teacher.

Furthermore, with regards Yahweh and Elohim, they are two aspects of the same Consciousness-Being-Force; Masculine and Feminine respectively. For in Deuteronomy 6:4 it is written, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!". Recalling what "LORD" and "God" represent in English: "Yahweh Elohim", one "Thing". Not dissimilar to: Genesis 2:24,"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be ONE FLESH."

Finally, I will claim the multiplicity and plurality are of two kinds. The various "faces" of the Holy Spirit (Shekinah) and Elohim, as well as the children which come from the "womb" of the Holy Spirt and Elohim. For if the Creator(s) are the Parents, then the Creation is the Child(ren). There is numerous things in creation, thus the multiplicity and plurality, yet this is a finite mirror of the Infinite Elohim and the Transcendent of Creation, Yahweh.
 

Pierac

New member
Jesus was both human and divine in one person, having come down to earth to live the God revealing life to his children, he would speak from 2 different natures on different occasions.

Even now, having returned to his rightful place in heaven with all power and authority in heaven and on earth, he would still speak by divine rite and about his paradise Father.

The secondary characterizations saying "God raised him up" are still saying the same thing as "I will raise it up" because Jesus is divine, he never died, his temporary mortal tabernacle died.

If Jesus never died... Then you are dead in your sins fool! As the wages of sin is never partial death!!!

Your missing the whole point... Are you saying God is both human and divine?

You speak as a child... Caino!


Pay attention... Jesus teaches you he is a man... not ... 2 different natures on different occasions as you teach!!! :readthis:
(John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

and the apostles call him "a man" (Acts 2: 22; 1 Tim. 2:5). Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Jesus is constantly contrasted with and distinguished from God, his Father.

So in your post above your saying... (John 8:40) teaches... "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a temporary mortal tabernacle who has told you the truth, which I heard (Told myself!!!) from myself God; this Abraham did not do. :think:

Now don't you feel stupid! :rolleyes:


Study harder and stop letting men tell you what to believe...
:poly::sherlock:
Paul
 

Caino

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Banned
If Jesus never died... Then you are dead in your sins fool! As the wages of sin is never partial death!!!

Your missing the whole point... Are you saying God is both human and divine?

You speak as a child... Caino!


Pay attention... Jesus teaches you he is a man... not ... 2 different natures on different occasions as you teach!!! :readthis:
(John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

and the apostles call him "a man" (Acts 2: 22; 1 Tim. 2:5). Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Jesus is constantly contrasted with and distinguished from God, his Father.

So in your post above your saying... (John 8:40) teaches... "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a temporary mortal tabernacle who has told you the truth, which I heard (Told myself!!!) from myself God; this Abraham did not do. :think:

Now don't you feel stupid! :rolleyes:


Study harder and stop letting men tell you what to believe...
:poly::sherlock:
Paul

*Jesus, while eternal, has a Father, he is conscious of being ancestral to the Father. In divine humility he glorifies his Father. Jesus was both human and divine in one miraculous person not well understood by his apostles and followers.

* God the Father delegates creative powers and authority in his divine Sons. Together they created man.

* The atonement theory is the problem of the people who hold to it, that wasn't the gospel that Jesus tried to carry to the Jews.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
*Jesus, while eternal, has a Father, he is conscious of being ancestral to the Father. In divine humility he glorifies his Father. Jesus was both human and divine in one miraculous person not well understood by his apostles and followers.

* God the Father delegates creative powers and authority in his divine Sons. Together they created man.

* The atonement theory is the problem of the people who hold to it, that wasn't the gospel that Jesus tried to carry to the Jews.

How was Jesus both human and divive?

I see Jesus as human with a divive spirit that went into him at his anointing.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
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How was Jesus both human and divive?

I see Jesus as human with a divive spirit that went into him at his anointing.

Pretty straight forward. His mother Mary was human, his Father was God! However you have a hard time believing that.
 

Caino

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Banned
How was Jesus both human and divive?

I see Jesus as human with a divive spirit that went into him at his anointing.

The real answer to that question is wrapped up in the miracle of the person of the Son becoming the personality in the child concieved by Joseph and Mary . It is a miricle understood only on Paradise.

It is human speculation to say that Jesus became divine when the Father appeared audibly in the Jordan. Jesus always was both human and divine in one person.
 

Mashiach Yeshua

New member
Does Jesus "lose divinity" if He were to have a paternal and maternal parent of earthly origin?
Or does He become more relational and relatable?

Is God not our Father too, and still we have earthly parents? Are we not also Called to be conformed to the image of Jesus?
 

Mashiach Yeshua

New member
This discussion is heavy, and cannot be had if their are fundamentalists on either end not seeing through the lens of another, reflecting on the experience and knowledge of others present.

This conversation historically goes south fast when posters and speakers react to words, phrases and understandings different from their accepted view and popular view familiar to them. That is when people usually begin hurling insults and bible verses at one another in a state of blind, self-righteousness.
 

Mashiach Yeshua

New member
I propose His divinity is established in His soul/spirit. The body of Jesus is divine in as much as His soul is divine and further embodied. Rather than having the biological tendencies of irrational fears, vices, and unconsciousness dictate His life.

I also propose His body was created by male and female, biological human bodies-- Joseph and Mary. Although, His soul was fashioned and formed of the very same fabric, likeness and substance of God. Therefore, He is the image of His Creator. In recognition and realization of the subtle, spiritual realm(s) and nature of His soul being innate goodness-- He was raised, and practiced, identifying with His soul. Not His body.

However, many mistake the body for God. Most call the person of Jesus "God" and not the Personality within and behind the body. Beyond "name", "life experience" and "relationships-attachments". In other words they worship the man of Jesus, not the divine being of Jesus. Of those who worship the divine being of Jesus, few are those who recognize, rare are those who realize, the same being of His body is the very same being inhabiting our bodies. The One True God, One in Spirit, Truth, and Love, yet reflected and manifested in multiplicity and plurality.

As you see, God transcends paganism and monotheism. The truth is in between, yet behind and beyond.
 

Caino

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Banned
Is Jesus God manifest? Or is Jesus God unmanifest?
Is He the One True God? Or is He a vessel, pouring out from God, a conduit of the Godhead?

The Eternal Father is such because he has eternal Sons who have existed with him from eternity.

The Eternal Father is the existential, volitional consequence of the self distribution of the first source and center; I AM.

God deligates power and authority, he did so in God the Son who is our creator, he incarnate as Jesus.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Pretty straight forward. His mother Mary was human, his Father was God! However you have a hard time believing that.

No I don't. But I see it in a different way.

Jesus had to be human to die for our sins. He was born.

But the spirit Christ that was IN him, was not born, it had to be created because it is an IMAGE of the true creator.

Most folks are like you, they think that Jesus is the son that God sent. I see Jesus as the body provided for the Christ to dwell in. I do not see a pre existant Jesus, but I do see a spirit son Christ who was with God before the worlds were made.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
The real answer to that question is wrapped up in the miracle of the person of the Son becoming the personality in the child concieved by Joseph and Mary . It is a miricle understood only on Paradise.

It is human speculation to say that Jesus became divine when the Father appeared audibly in the Jordan. Jesus always was both human and divine in one person.

I must be in paradise then for I have no problem seeing how God sent his son in spirit form to become a man. That became clear to me in Heb 10:5.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
The Eternal Father is such because he has eternal Sons who have existed with him from eternity.

The Eternal Father is the existential, volitional consequence of the self distribution of the first source and center; I AM.

God deligates power and authority, he did so in God the Son who is our creator, he incarnate as Jesus.

I believe that the Father, the only true God, was alone until he created the Spirit Christ, for Christ is an IMAGE. You need a subject to copy before you can make a copy.
 

rougueone

New member
Jesus Christ is one person in two natures, fully human and fully divine. He died in his humanity, not his divinity. However, since Christ is one person it is proper to say that "God died," so long as we understand that the divine nature did not die.

Likewise it is good to call the Virgin Mary "Mother of God" as she gave birth to God in the flesh.



He is the express image of God the Father. How is that possible? Because he has the same nature as God the Father and is therefore himself God.

"The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us..."

I close with one of my favorite Christian hymns:

Only begotten Son and Immortal Word of God, Who for our salvation willed to be incarnate of the Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary; Who without change became man, and were crucified, O Christ our God, trampling down death by death; who are one of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit- save us!

Mary was " A Mother" to God-Jesus, but she knew ( as Scriptures validate below), whom she was mothering. She knew prior to jesus birth, that Jesus was Lord and Savior. Her's as well.

Mary was no longer a virgin as she had two sons after Jesus. Further Mary was a mother to Jesus. But she also needed salvation and knew this by calling her SON " LORD"...."‘I am the Lord's servant…. May it be to me as you have said.’" And....v. 47. she said, “…my spirit rejoices in God my Savior

And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord, 47And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. 48"For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave; For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed.…

And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
luke 10:39

Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?" Supposing Him to be the gardener, she said to Him, "Sir, if you have carried Him away, tell me where you have laid Him, and I will take Him away." 16 Jesus said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, "Rabboni!" (which means, Teacher). 17Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"…
john 20:16

John Michael Talbot composed a great song for Mary...Holy is His Name - Quiet Reflections Part 4--you tube

Hope this helps.
 
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