Because your straw man verse is not there, It doesn't need to be there Thomas.
Jesus is God !
- Thread starter beloved57
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Because your straw man verse is not there, It doesn't need to be there Thomas.
WOW! Did you actually post this?
Act 8:3 But Saul (Paul) was trying to destroy the church; entering one house after another, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.
Act 9:1 Meanwhile Saul, still breathing out threats to murder the Lord's disciples, went to the high priest and requested letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any who belonged to the Way, either men or women, he could bring them as prisoners to Jerusalem.
Perhaps your right.... Maybe he happened upon a Christian like you who changed his mind? Yea, Jesus had nothing to do with it right? :think:
Your an idiot! Shortly after Paul's personal conversion from being a racist, sectarian, self-righteous, bigoted, and highly religious Pharisees to a disciple of the Lord by Jesus Himself personally. He led him to an Arabian desert for three years (Galatians 1: 17 -- 18). What was he doing there? Detoxing from the traditions of men! Everything that Paul knew as a zealous Pharisee was sweated out of him in the desert... one tradition at a time.
oly::sherlock:
Paul
Saul had a spiritual awakening and became Paul, a transformation, he was born again, saved in faith.......like millions and billions of people since Christ ascended into heaven. Paul just happened to be the first great charismatic preacher of a new religion about Jesus as that religion was forming. The Pagan world heard about Jesus primarily by way of Paul and his powerful preaching. The gospels were written after Paul's influence had colored the recollection of the meaning of Jesus teaching's. Much of the New Testament is Jesus according to Paul.
Paul's followers held him in such high regard that even his simple letters of correspondence (and some attributed to him) were converted into the Word of God by the Church at Rome making Paul's words equal to those of Jesus.
*Paul taught the gospel of "Christ and him crucified" as an atoning sacrifice.
* Jesus taught, preached and lived the Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven to the Jews which was obviously rejected.
* Jesus taught, preached and lived the Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven to the Jews which was obviously rejected.
While I respect Paul as sincere and a great leader, I'm a disciple of Jesus and his original gospel.
Was Jesus speaking for himself? Or was he telling them what His God wanted him to say???
Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
Just like Moses when He said he was the Lord your GOD!
Study Hebrew "agency." Moses summons all of Israel and says to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders" (v.2-3). Moses continues to recite for the people all that God has done for them. But notice that in verse 6, while still reciting all God's wonders, Moses suddenly changes to the first person and says, "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the LORD your God." It is obvious that God himself is not personally speaking to the people. Moses is preaching. But Moses as the agent of God can speak as though he is the Lord himself. What is happening here? God is speaking through His man, His appointed representative. Therefore, he can move from speaking in the third person, “the LORD did this and that for you" to the first person: "I am the LORD your God doing this and that." :think:
After all scripture clearly teaches who raised Jesus...
Act 2:24 But God raised him up
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
You know, the God of Jesus... Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.
Paul
Jesus was both human and divine in one person, having come down to earth to live the God revealing life to his children, he would speak from 2 different natures on different occasions.
Even now, having returned to his rightful place in heaven with all power and authority in heaven and on earth, he would still speak by divine rite and about his paradise Father.
The secondary characterizations saying "God raised him up" are still saying the same thing as "I will raise it up" because Jesus is divine, he never died, his temporary mortal tabernacle died.
Jordan Fontenot
New member
i wish you well with keypurr - he's a tough cookie
Deeply appreciated good sir!
Zeke
Well-known member
The word that implants a mustard seed within the conscience in cased in a glass/body/flesh that restrict its Divine vision 1 Cor 13:12.
Jesus never incarnated outside of the conscience/heart, and only represents every Divine Soul's journey as a stranger through this world of matter that has caught it by the lure of the bodies ability to experience good and evil. The world is but it's stage to carry out this inward drama.
Jordan Fontenot
New member
Well then one would argue that the intention of the Son lowering himself into the form of a human was to show that God, at his core, can be grasped even in this restricted divine vision and not only grasped but known well even on a personal level. A sense of unity can be attained with God even in our restrictive state and that we have no excuse not to strive to attain that unity because Christ was sent to show it is well within our grasp.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
chocolate chips.......
chocolate chips.......
He's convinced and sticking to his own Christ-concept,...like others. Just because some church councils sat down and voted for a 'concept' that fit their religious beliefs the best, and crowned it 'orthodox', doesn't mean other concepts of 'Christ' as less tenable or worthy of consideration
To see 'God' in the person of Jesus is enough,....while various descriptions or assumptions of his 'human' and 'divine' nature might vary. Those arguing otherwise are polishing their own golden calves.
pj
chocolate chips.......
i wish you well with keypurr - he's a tough cookie
He's convinced and sticking to his own Christ-concept,...like others. Just because some church councils sat down and voted for a 'concept' that fit their religious beliefs the best, and crowned it 'orthodox', doesn't mean other concepts of 'Christ' as less tenable or worthy of consideration
To see 'God' in the person of Jesus is enough,....while various descriptions or assumptions of his 'human' and 'divine' nature might vary. Those arguing otherwise are polishing their own golden calves.
pj
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Allegorical insights...........
Allegorical insights...........
Superlative
The incarnation is a portraiture of the divine coming down into the human and unfolding outward that divine nature in a fleshly tabernacle, so as in a 'mirror' the axiom of "as above, so below" becomes realized, as duality is swallowed up in the unity of Spirit.
The 'Christ' pictures for us the entire process of humanization of the divine, and divinitization of the human, so the 'Christ-story' can be mirrored in us, as our own personal journey of transformation. Hence Paul could say that we participate in the process of 'theosis', being buried and risen with Jesus to the glory of God, since its all God anyways, working in and thru us.
pj
Allegorical insights...........
Superlative
The incarnation is a portraiture of the divine coming down into the human and unfolding outward that divine nature in a fleshly tabernacle, so as in a 'mirror' the axiom of "as above, so below" becomes realized, as duality is swallowed up in the unity of Spirit.
The 'Christ' pictures for us the entire process of humanization of the divine, and divinitization of the human, so the 'Christ-story' can be mirrored in us, as our own personal journey of transformation. Hence Paul could say that we participate in the process of 'theosis', being buried and risen with Jesus to the glory of God, since its all God anyways, working in and thru us.
pj
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
A 'belief' is just a 'belief'........
A 'belief' is just a 'belief'........
On this point, we could be splitting hairs. Note that only in the gospel of John does Jesus claim to raise up his own body. Who cares who raised it, since if it was raised according to the power of God, then so be it. If Jesus was indeed a divine Son with such power, and confessed he had the power to do it,...then it would be so, unless one questions the record of John :idunno: - John's writings did undergo some redactions and is a later gospel, with various gnostic undertones.
A Unitarian view is fine,....but if one wants to go a bit further with the divinity of Jesus (as espoused in the Urantia Book),...then Jesus could indeed have raised himself because he is our 'Creator-Son' (a divine Son of high standing, but not being the 'Eternal Son' within the original Trinity), and had such power to do so. This would be where Caino is coming from, with respect to his sense of Christology. We cover aspects of this in the respective thread.
To see 'God' in Jesus is enough, no matter what theological spin, preferential twist or rationale you like to use to conceptualize it. Also if you're not keeping an open mind about it, you're limiting your own self to see and comprehend more about the person of Jesus and the concept of 'Christ' in all its various facets. Your concept of Jesus could be valueless or even unnecessary. Challenge your 'beliefs' if you're courageous enough.
pj
A 'belief' is just a 'belief'........
On this point, we could be splitting hairs. Note that only in the gospel of John does Jesus claim to raise up his own body. Who cares who raised it, since if it was raised according to the power of God, then so be it. If Jesus was indeed a divine Son with such power, and confessed he had the power to do it,...then it would be so, unless one questions the record of John :idunno: - John's writings did undergo some redactions and is a later gospel, with various gnostic undertones.
A Unitarian view is fine,....but if one wants to go a bit further with the divinity of Jesus (as espoused in the Urantia Book),...then Jesus could indeed have raised himself because he is our 'Creator-Son' (a divine Son of high standing, but not being the 'Eternal Son' within the original Trinity), and had such power to do so. This would be where Caino is coming from, with respect to his sense of Christology. We cover aspects of this in the respective thread.
To see 'God' in Jesus is enough, no matter what theological spin, preferential twist or rationale you like to use to conceptualize it. Also if you're not keeping an open mind about it, you're limiting your own self to see and comprehend more about the person of Jesus and the concept of 'Christ' in all its various facets. Your concept of Jesus could be valueless or even unnecessary. Challenge your 'beliefs' if you're courageous enough.
pj
Zeke
Well-known member
Christ represented the Divine Conscience that is born from above Galatians 4:26, and is born after the first born of flesh opens the womb, the bonds woman gives birth to the first born of the flesh Galatians 4:24, following the Cain and Able motif separated as two distinct people/nations yet a allegory of the dual nature in one body.
As you know John directed the writing of his gospel to include facts omitted from the other gospels.
Jordan Fontenot
New member
Christ is real...
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Reality?
Reality?
Without getting too deep into epistemology......such a statement can only be subjective and according to the terms of 'reality' posed by the one giving the statement....fair enough? We can research the historical issues around the person of Jesus, as some debate and controversy exists along those lines,....but when one says 'Christ is real'....or 'God is real'......we still fall back onto the knowledge of the professor, a 'knowledge' that comes with its own 'terms'. Then you have the added perks of 'faith',....of course
pj
Reality?
Without getting too deep into epistemology......such a statement can only be subjective and according to the terms of 'reality' posed by the one giving the statement....fair enough? We can research the historical issues around the person of Jesus, as some debate and controversy exists along those lines,....but when one says 'Christ is real'....or 'God is real'......we still fall back onto the knowledge of the professor, a 'knowledge' that comes with its own 'terms'. Then you have the added perks of 'faith',....of course
pj
Zeke
Well-known member
Agree, it's the singular personality manifested as the second Adam being flesh instead of the spirit, 1Cor 15:45-48 that I disagree with, the historic version is carnal and without substance.
Jordan Fontenot
New member
Without getting too deep into epistemology......such a statement can only be subjective and according to the terms of 'reality' posed by the one giving the statement....fair enough? We can research the historical issues around the person of Jesus, as some debate and controversy exists along those lines,....but when one says 'Christ is real'....or 'God is real'......we still fall back onto the knowledge of the professor, a 'knowledge' that comes with its own 'terms'. Then you have the added perks of 'faith',....of course
pj
That is only assuming that reality is subjective, which is a self-extinguishing argument. Truth cannot be relative because eventually you reach a point where truth must be definite in order to state that truth is subjective. Otherwise your saying truth is subjective becomes subjective.
We are real. We have physical bodies and minds and we effect the world around us in multiple ways including physiologically, socially, mentally, and spiritually. There is a singular stream of shared consciousness which exists in a tangible and concrete reality. Jesus existed in this same stream of shared consciousness. One would argue that he still does. He is real in a very concrete and much less ambiguous way.
keypurr
Well-known member
How did a divine Christ lower himself to become human?
God prepared a BODY for him, that body is Jesus.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Before he became man he was a spirit being like his Father. He is te express image of his Father.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Christ is a created form of God. Early translations speak of to him as an IT.
Joh 1:1 In the begynnyng was the worde, & the worde was with God: and that worde was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the begynnyng with God.
Joh 1:3 All thynges were made by it: and without it, was made nothyng that was made.
Joh 1:4 In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men, (Bishops)
I was not saying that Christ is the Holy Spirit, that another topic. The point I am trying to make is that Jesus was anointed by a spirit called Christ. God created everything through Christ. Jesus became the Christ. Christ is the SON God sent, Jesus is the body God provided. As you can see I think in a different manner than most. But once I was shown that God created his exact image and used it to build the Universe, I see things differently than the standard set by the churches.
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Ask yourself what was that POWER?
Zeke
Well-known member
He went about in the kingdom Luke 17:20-21, not as an ethnic personality who is depicted as a male, when neither is in the kingdom of light. Jesus/Jonah is our story in a body of 7/8 water which is depicted as the whale/grave of the Divine Soul, prodigal Sons.
keypurr
Well-known member
i wish you well with keypurr - he's a tough cookie
I got some new teeth so I will chew him up. I will sharpen them.