keypurr
Well-known member
Jesus is not the word in John 1.
Christ is, Christ was a spirit, the express image of God.
Jesus became the Christ at his anointing.
Jesus is God !
- Thread starter beloved57
- Start date
Jesus is not the word in John 1.
Christ is, Christ was a spirit, the express image of God.
Jesus became the Christ at his anointing.
keypurr
Well-known member
And Jesus NEVER said he was equal to his Father.
Jordan Fontenot
New member
Apparently he did...
keypurr
Well-known member
Where?
Was it here?
Joh_10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
keypurr
Well-known member
That's first grade stuff, time to turn the page.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Lets do serious research................
Lets do serious research................
Hi JF,
Here is more on John 8:58 here & here.
The issue of John 1:1 needs a full and comprehensive study to come to the best conclusions and possibilities of translation.
See previous dialogue, videos and resource links here, here, here, here.
Notice this direct passage reveals Jesus claiming that God was his Father. This is all Jesus claimed thru-out the gospel of John,...it was only the Jews who 'interpreted' this as Jesus making himself equal with God....its important to see this. This is the commentators 'assumption'. Jesus himself never said he was equal to 'God' or "I am God". He revealed/reveals 'God', and that is sufficient.
Even in John 10: 31-39, the Jews again assumed Jesus was 'making himself God', but Jesus himself only declared to be the 'Son of God' (verse 36). He continues to distinguish himself from 'God' his Father, as the one whom God sent.
A Unitarian view of Jesus is completely sound and logical within its own context. A Trinitarian view superimposes more complications IMO, but sure, it can be 'assumed' within its own so called 'proof-texts' and context'. On the surface I see a lot of the Unitarian/Trinitarian debate as 'petty' technicalities, when the message and revelation of Jesus as revealing 'God' and the goodnews of God's kingdom is what is ESSENTIAL, and the living of its principles.
pj
Lets do serious research................
Hi JF,
Here is more on John 8:58 here & here.
The issue of John 1:1 needs a full and comprehensive study to come to the best conclusions and possibilities of translation.
See previous dialogue, videos and resource links here, here, here, here.
Notice this direct passage reveals Jesus claiming that God was his Father. This is all Jesus claimed thru-out the gospel of John,...it was only the Jews who 'interpreted' this as Jesus making himself equal with God....its important to see this. This is the commentators 'assumption'. Jesus himself never said he was equal to 'God' or "I am God". He revealed/reveals 'God', and that is sufficient.
Even in John 10: 31-39, the Jews again assumed Jesus was 'making himself God', but Jesus himself only declared to be the 'Son of God' (verse 36). He continues to distinguish himself from 'God' his Father, as the one whom God sent.
A Unitarian view of Jesus is completely sound and logical within its own context. A Trinitarian view superimposes more complications IMO, but sure, it can be 'assumed' within its own so called 'proof-texts' and context'. On the surface I see a lot of the Unitarian/Trinitarian debate as 'petty' technicalities, when the message and revelation of Jesus as revealing 'God' and the goodnews of God's kingdom is what is ESSENTIAL, and the living of its principles.
pj
that's why reading Paul's Gospel of God's Grace and Salvation is THE MOST ESSENTIAL, because that is where THE BEST NEWS IS ! ! ! and there's only - :1Way: - :rapture:
You do not know Jesus, but Paul did.
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
God was in Christ, but not before His baptism or at his temptations or at the cross.
If any want to say Jesus is the word made flesh then yes one can say He is Theos, but not the creator who is His Father.
It was the Father of Jesus who raised Jesus from the dead, who also oft spoke through Him during His ministry and after His resurrection.
LA
Jesus spoke this after His resurrection and glorification with His Father.
Jesus did have a beginning according to the Bible account.
LA
We have had this discussion before keypurr, it leads me to realize that you are being stubborn in this area. The proof is that he returned just like he said that he would......but you want me to go into the miracle and show you where he did it? Do I need to go into Mary's womb and show you the miracle there as well or do you selectively choose what parts of the story to use common sense while playing dumb with others? Do I need to go into the miracle of the blind man who was healed? What, are you now a member of the Sanhedrin?????
"What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?" 19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
'The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said."
"What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?" 19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
In order to dismiss what Jesus said himself people will go to other characterizations to try to discredit his words and actions. But even his apostles doubted until they saw the truth.
Jordan Fontenot
New member
No it was in John 5... the verse that I posted and you ignored.
I don't think there is any question that Jesus is the Word in John 1. I see the responses I am getting for thinking I am insane for believing such but forgive me if I don't buy into some round-about sub-par exegetical gymnastics.
John states pretty clearly the Word was God and was with Him in the beginning and that in him was life and that life was the light to all mankind. That light came into this world and became flesh about which John says "we have seen his glory, the glory of the Son who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
The Word was something that John had seen himself and acknowledged that it was God. What John says about him is "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Jesus is the Son is the Word is God...
Was Jesus speaking for himself? Or was he telling them what His God wanted him to say???
Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
Just like Moses when He said he was the Lord your GOD!
Study Hebrew "agency." Moses summons all of Israel and says to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders" (v.2-3). Moses continues to recite for the people all that God has done for them. But notice that in verse 6, while still reciting all God's wonders, Moses suddenly changes to the first person and says, "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the LORD your God." It is obvious that God himself is not personally speaking to the people. Moses is preaching. But Moses as the agent of God can speak as though he is the Lord himself. What is happening here? God is speaking through His man, His appointed representative. Therefore, he can move from speaking in the third person, “the LORD did this and that for you" to the first person: "I am the LORD your God doing this and that." :think:
After all scripture clearly teaches who raised Jesus...
Act 2:24 But God raised him up
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
You know, the God of Jesus... Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.
oly::sherlock:Paul
WOW! Did you actually post this?
Act 8:3 But Saul (Paul) was trying to destroy the church; entering one house after another, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.
Act 9:1 Meanwhile Saul, still breathing out threats to murder the Lord's disciples, went to the high priest and requested letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any who belonged to the Way, either men or women, he could bring them as prisoners to Jerusalem.
Perhaps your right.... Maybe he happened upon a Christian like you who changed his mind? Yea, Jesus had nothing to do with it right? :think:
Your an idiot! Shortly after Paul's personal conversion from being a racist, sectarian, self-righteous, bigoted, and highly religious Pharisees to a disciple of the Lord by Jesus Himself personally. He led him to an Arabian desert for three years (Galatians 1: 17 -- 18). What was he doing there? Detoxing from the traditions of men! Everything that Paul knew as a zealous Pharisee was sweated out of him in the desert... one tradition at a time.
oly::sherlock: Paul
keypurr
Well-known member
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Where in THIS verse does Jesus say he is equal to his Father?
Jesus NEVER said he was equal to his God. In fact he said NO ONE is equal to his God in the verse I gave you.
Now of John 1, I understand why you think the word is Jesus for I thought that for many years. But its wrong. The word is the Christ spirit that is IN Jesus. In the early translations the word was an IT not a HE. Christ is a spirit, the express image of his Father who is a spirit. Christ is a form of God, Phil 2, Jesus is the body that God prepared for his Christ. Heb 10:5. Christ was with God at the creation, but he himself is a creation. This spirit took the form of man and dwelled in Jesus. Jesus became the Christ when he was anointed with him. That is when God said that this was his son. The true son is the spirit Christ.
keypurr
Well-known member
Your not showing us the verse that shows Jesus raising himself. Why?
Because it does not exist.
We know what he said but we can not assume anything. You are doing that. I am not being stubborn, just exact.
Jordan Fontenot
New member
Wow you literally just completely took Hebrews 10:5 and put it in roughly the opposite context. The beauty of Hebrews 10 is that Christ, in his divinity lowers himself to mortality to save us. If you want to question Christ's divinity, by all means go right ahead. However just remember if you do you also have to question the salvation offered through him. Only perfect divinity can give salvation to a broken humanity. Not the other way around.
Not to mention in the original Greek, verbs were not gender specific. However The Holy Spirit is specifically referred to in scripture as a "He" so if you are counting on pronouns to make your argument that might be a little tough.