Jesus is God !

[journey]

Jesus Christ is God and always has been. He is one with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. There ARE three holy personages, yet the three are one. I realize this is hard for the heretic squad to accept, but this is what God's Word teaches. It's REALITY, regardless of what the heretic squad believes, and you know who you are.

 

[keypurr]

Jesus Christ is God and always has been. He is one with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. There ARE three holy personages, yet the three are one. I realize this is hard for the heretic squad to accept, but this is what God's Word teaches. It's REALITY, regardless of what the heretic squad believes, and you know who you are.

You don't think much do you?

You do not question anything.

 

[freelight]

Metaphysics 101

Metaphysics 101

I propose His divinity is established in His soul/spirit. The body of Jesus is divine in as much as His soul is divine and further embodied. Rather than having the biological tendencies of irrational fears, vices, and unconsciousness dictate His life.

I also propose His body was created by male and female, biological human bodies-- Joseph and Mary. Although, His soul was fashioned and formed of the very same fabric, likeness and substance of God. Therefore, He is the image of His Creator. In recognition and realization of the subtle, spiritual realm(s) and nature of His soul being innate goodness-- He was raised, and practiced, identifying with His soul. Not His body.

However, many mistake the body for God. Most call the person of Jesus "God" and not the Personality within and behind the body. Beyond "name", "life experience" and "relationships-attachments". In other words they worship the man of Jesus, not the divine being of Jesus. Of those who worship the divine being of Jesus, few are those who recognize, rare are those who realize, the same being of His body is the very same being inhabiting our bodies. The One True God, One in Spirit, Truth, and Love, yet reflected and manifested in multiplicity and plurality.

As you see, God transcends paganism and monotheism. The truth is in between, yet behind and beyond.

Indeed,....Jesus for us, embodies and exemplifies the perfect union of both 'human' and 'divine' natures, integrated and operating thru a living personality, reflecting the divine potential and perfection of the immortal soul and the evolving mortal soul as it ascends, evolves and develops to that point of spirit-perfection and God-communion that renders it truly 'immortal'.

In a hierarchal theological context, Jesus is held however to be of a higher eternal order of being, either 'God the Son' who is part of the Trinity (traditional-orthodox Christian view), or a 'Creator-Son' who is a high-order of divine Son who are creators of local universes within the greater Grand Universe (a Urantia Book view), unique as a creators, but different from their creation and evolving mortal souls, who but share his outpoured Spirit of truth, and have within them other 'spirits' of God that lead and guide them to fulfill their life-purpose. In the latter view Jesus is the 'God', savior and Lord of this world, as a 'Creator-Son'...and to serve and respect him is to serve/respect 'God', of course. But there is still the greater Universal Father who is the First Source and Center of all reality, whom all beings worship and trace back as their eternal/ultimate source and destiny, all souls aspiring to at least see the Universal Father in the Paradise center of all creation.

On a more liberal eclectic spiritualist view of Jesus, Jesus is our exemplar....one who attained the Christ-consciousness and earned his 'Christhood' first among the sons of men, who is our Way-shower, guide and teacher,....leading us into the true way of spirit-communion and worship of God, the kingdom of heaven and divine will. So there is a variety of views, from assuming Jesus holds some eternal status as a pre-existent being, God's firstborn spirit-creation,...to one of Jesus the man simply being the first to be fully perfect in 'Christ-consciousness', whereby he was 'anointed' with the Spirit at that time, and ever holds that special office as the way, the life and the truth of God,....by his living example and teachings, being the 'revelation' of 'God' to us.

So,...there are many different views which could accept Jesus being 'God' in some ways, but NOT being 'God' in others, as Jesus is distinct from God as his 'Son', being a 'generation' of 'God', but still having his own distinct personality, although of the same divine nature. On varying levels we can too, hold ourselves as sons of God, like Jesus in some ways, but not like Jesus in other ways, if Jesus holds a special Sonship and relationship all his own, that we can never share,...but that again, is a matter of what 'doctrine' or 'belief' you have.....relationally speaking.

For a more fun metaphysical spin on how we define 'God', and by what criteria, see my former posts (with links) here

Remember, if we want to delve into more pure metaphysics,...there is 'God' that is beyond or prior to any 'conception' whatsoever. There there is 'God' in creative expression...bringing forth or 'conceiving' CREATION....an extension, differentiation, individuation, multiplication, GENERATION of Himself, or out from Himself, since this Original One is the only source or orgin of all that is, or ever will be. There is 'God',.....and the 'creation' of 'God', at least in the realm of dualistic-perception...but there is always the non-dual universal essence and awareness prior to any duality. Spirit, substance, form...all arising in one universal ocean of consciousness.





pj

 

[dialm]

That crap means nothing to me !

The host of this thread might have lost his patience at this point. But he has brought up one of the more important questions of all time.

Who Is Jesus?

I have several friends in this thread whom I highly respect. They ask many good challenging questions.

1 To me the Bible makes it very clear that sin cannot be in the presence of God.

2 The Bible also makes it very clear that God loves us with a love so deep that it goes beyond all human reason.

To connect these two ideas there must be a miracle. Somehow God has to let us into His world without harming His majesty.

 

[Caino]

I must be in paradise then for I have no problem seeing how God sent his son in spirit form to become a man. That became clear to me in Heb 10:5.

The miracle of how God the Son, who is the existential personification of the Father, became Jesus the man, is not explained in Heb 10:5

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God​

Whoever wrote Hebrews didn't claim to know the mystery of the Miracle.

Jesus sits on high now as God just as he was before he came down from heaven and lived as a man.

 

[dialm]

The miracle of how God the Son who is the existential personification of the Father, became Jesus the man is not explained in Heb 10:5

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God​

Whoever wrote Hebrews didn't claim to know the mystery of the Miracle.

Jesus sits on high now as God just as he was before he came down from heaven and lived as a man.

You are in good company on several levels Caino.

For instance, the authorship of Hebrews is unknown. Several of the greatest Christians of all time reject Apostle authorship. The church of Roman has many times discounted the book's authorship. Judaism debunks it. (But it is persistent. Maybe it is our fascination with the priesthood?)

dialm

 

[dialm]

Here is a concern with using a book like Hebrews on a subject like this thread:

We can't come up with the identity of the author of the book of Hebrews. So it does not make much sense to use the book of Hebrews to try to come up with the identity of the Author and Finisher of our faith.

 

[Caino]

Here is a concern with using a book like Hebrews on a subject like this thread:

We can't come up with the identity of the author of the book of Hebrews. So it does not make much sense to use the book of Hebrews to try to come up with the identity of the Author and Finisher of our faith.

I think that's true of most Bible books, but what we can extrapolate roughly is that those people had faith, they wrote about God as they understood him in context with their worldview, cultural norms, finite limitations etc.

 

[keypurr]

The miracle of how God the Son, who is the existential personification of the Father, became Jesus the man, is not explained in Heb 10:5

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God​

Whoever wrote Hebrews didn't claim to know the mystery of the Miracle.

Jesus sits on high now as God just as he was before he came down from heaven and lived as a man.

You are overlooking the words friend.
Who needed a body prepared for him?
Who prepared that body for him?
Why did he need a body prepared for him?

There is only one God, the Father. The son is and exact copy, a creation. Because he was given the fullness of the Father, he can create. God created everything through his SON Christ. Christ is a spiritual being that needed a body to live in, Jesus is that body. Jesus became the Christ at his anointing.

 

[Bright Raven]

No I don't. But I see it in a different way.

Jesus had to be human to die for our sins. He was born.

But the spirit Christ that was IN him, was not born, it had to be created because it is an IMAGE of the true creator.

Most folks are like you, they think that Jesus is the son that God sent. I see Jesus as the body provided for the Christ to dwell in. I do not see a pre existant Jesus, but I do see a spirit son Christ who was with God before the worlds were made.

There is no different way friend. Mother Mary, Father God.

 

[dialm]

I think that's true of most Bible books, but what we can extrapolate roughly is that those people had faith, they wrote about God as they understood him in context with their worldview, cultural norms, finite limitations etc.

Caino,

There is at least a preponderance of the doubt to most of the books concerning authorship. But the Old Testament was the property of The Jewish people. Many Christians have deferred to them the right to name the books of the Old Testament. Probably they had rules that were important to them at the time they picked their books.

Are there any ancient manuscripts that are not important?

 

[dialm]

You are overlooking the words friend.
Who needed a body prepared for him?
Who prepared that body for him?
Why did he need a body prepared for him?

There is only one God, the Father. The son is and exact copy, a creation. Because he was given the fullness of the Father, he can create. God created everything through his SON Christ. Christ is a spiritual being that needed a body to live in, Jesus is that body. Jesus became the Christ at his anointing.

I think I see your point. Do you know when the idea of the Trinity first began? That is something that most of us would be interested in.

As to an exact copy, Jesus did say something to that effect. Not sure what you have said that I have a problem with here. Christ certainly needed a body of flesh. His anointing was a special moment.

No, you are good once again.

 

[dialm]

There is no different way friend. Mother Mary, Father God.

Bright Raven,

You say that so easy. Like it is an every day happening. (What planet are you from? Here on Earth we should be on our knees begging God to be forgiven for forcing Him to prove His love toward us. Don't you agree Bright a Raven?)

 

[Caino]

You are overlooking the words friend.
Who needed a body prepared for him?
Who prepared that body for him?
Why did he need a body prepared for him?

There is only one God, the Father. The son is and exact copy, a creation. Because he was given the fullness of the Father, he can create. God created everything through his SON Christ. Christ is a spiritual being that needed a body to live in, Jesus is that body. Jesus became the Christ at his anointing.

One God, with as many divine children as he wants to make, all unified in divinity. To see such a creator Son is to see the Father. a "copy" as you say.

The creator Son needed a body to incarnate in.
He incarnate in the natural human string of evolution.
He lived the human life to show man how it's done AND to experience what man experiences. We have a God who has been human and knows what man is confronted with.

 

[Caino]

Caino,

There is at least a preponderance of the doubt to most of the books concerning authorship. But the Old Testament was the property of The Jewish people. Many Christians have deferred to them the right to name the books of the Old Testament. Probably they had rules that were important to them at the time they picked their books.

Are there any ancient manuscripts that are not important?

They are all profitable for instruction but when we call something divine which is wholly human then we have created a graven image and stunted further learning.

 

[Aimiel]

That's what Urantia is: an idol.

 

[Pierac]

*Jesus, while eternal, has a Father, he is conscious of being ancestral to the Father. In divine humility he glorifies his Father. Jesus was both human and divine in one miraculous person not well understood by his apostles and followers.

* God the Father delegates creative powers and authority in his divine Sons. Together they created man.

* The atonement theory is the problem of the people who hold to it, that wasn't the gospel that Jesus tried to carry to the Jews.

My apologies... I thought you were a Trinitarian, your still wrong though!

You stated.... "Jesus, while eternal, has a Father, he is conscious of being ancestral to the Father." YET... You fail to address that Jesus has a GOD! Both before and after his God raised Him from the dead! :think:

Don't ignore scripture so you can believe a tradition of men! You can not be God and then claim to have one like Jesus!

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the LORD... there is no God but me."

Isaiah 45:5 - "I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

Isaiah 45:6 - "Men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other."

What does the OLD TESTAMENT say about MESSIANIC PROPHESIES?

Psalm 89:26-28 - "He (the Messiah) shall say of me. "You are my father, my God, my rock, my savior". And I will make him the firstborn."

Micah 5:3-4 - "He (the Messiah) shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD, in the Majestic name of the LORD, his God."

Psalm 22:10-11 - "To you I was committed at birth. From my mother’s womb you are my God."


What does Jesus say...
John 20:17 - "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Matthew 27:46 - "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Revelation 3:12 - "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."

Revelation 3:2 - "for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God."

Paul clues you in...

Ephesians 1:17 - "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father..."

2 Corinthians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Even John says...

Revelation 1:6 - "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

What about Peter...

1 Peter 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."


When one reads the preceding verses, there is one thing that is a fact. That Jesus Christ has a God. Jesus speaks of his God, Peter Paul and John mention the God of Jesus Christ. You can not be God and then claim to have one! :readthis:

oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Caino]

My apologies... I thought you were a Trinitarian, your still wrong though!

You stated.... "Jesus, while eternal, has a Father, he is conscious of being ancestral to the Father." YET... You fail to address that Jesus has a GOD! Both before and after his God raised Him from the dead! :think:

Don't ignore scripture so you can believe a tradition of men! You can not be God and then claim to have one like Jesus!

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the LORD... there is no God but me."

Isaiah 45:5 - "I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

Isaiah 45:6 - "Men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other."

What does the OLD TESTAMENT say about MESSIANIC PROPHESIES?

Psalm 89:26-28 - "He (the Messiah) shall say of me. "You are my father, my God, my rock, my savior". And I will make him the firstborn."

Micah 5:3-4 - "He (the Messiah) shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD, in the Majestic name of the LORD, his God."

Psalm 22:10-11 - "To you I was committed at birth. From my mother’s womb you are my God."


What does Jesus say...
John 20:17 - "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Matthew 27:46 - "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Revelation 3:12 - "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."

Revelation 3:2 - "for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God."

Paul clues you in...

Ephesians 1:17 - "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father..."

2 Corinthians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Even John says...

Revelation 1:6 - "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

What about Peter...

1 Peter 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."


When one reads the preceding verses, there is one thing that is a fact. That Jesus Christ has a God. Jesus speaks of his God, Peter Paul and John mention the God of Jesus Christ. You can not be God and then claim to have one! :readthis:

oly::sherlock:
Paul

Jesus raised himself from the dead (created a likeness of his former mortal body) as he said he would. Anti-Jesus divinity proponents use secondary characterizations of others talking about the event of Jesus returning in a new form to effectively discredit Jesus.

Jesus is God, he comes from God the Father and is indistinguishably unified in divinity with his Father.

God the Father can most certainly create divine Sons who in turn create and become Fathers to that creation.

God the Father can be thought of as a divine Grandfather to us. We go through God the Son to get to the Father.

 

[Pierac]

Jesus raised himself from the dead (created a likeness of his former mortal body) as he said he would. Anti-Jesus divinity proponents use secondary characterizations of others talking about the event of Jesus returning in a new form to effectively discredit Jesus.

Jesus is God, he comes from God the Father and is indistinguishably unified in divinity with his Father.

God the Father can most certainly create divine Sons who in turn create and become Fathers to that creation.

God the Father can be thought of as a divine Grandfather to us. We go through God the Son to get to the Father.

WRONG!!! :think:

Now let’s take a look at one of the many verses that speak of God raising Jesus.

Acts 2:32 states:"God raised this Jesus"


Who raised this Jesus? ... Yes... GOD! Notice that it does not say "the Father," but "God." Unless we discard every known rule of language, we can see that Jesus is not included in the term God. Another point to be made is that God is alive and Jesus is dead. God is raising Jesus from the dead. As Timothy pointed out before, God is immortal, He cannot die. Jesus on the other hand is DEAD. :think:

If you believe Jesus to be God, then it is obvious that Jesus was never truly dead because he did in fact raise himself from the dead. A huge problem arises with this absurd idea in that the forgiveness of our sins comes only through the death of Jesus Christ as the Bible states. If Jesus is God then there was no real death because Jesus is raising Jesus. Do you think that the Bible is wrong or that the creeds that were created by men that made Jesus God are wrong? Someone is wrong, the question is who, the writers of the Bible or the writers of the creeds? This idea of a dual nature comes from Greek philosophy, it is called Dualism.


Dualism - The view that reality may be divided into two essential forces. There are two forms of this understanding. From a cosmic perspective, the world struggles between two opposing forces - typically, one of evil and one of good. From a philosophical approach, the essence of a person is divided between two incompatible natures - that of the body and that of the soul. Early Christianity incorporated both views from those religions and philosophies with which it came in contact. This is the same concept used not only in Greek philosophy, but also in Greek mythology. Hercules is the son of Zeus and the mortal Alcmene. He had a dual nature, he was a man that had supernatural strength which he inherited from his father Zeus. The Pharaohs were godmen and so were the Caesars. The Bible even provides us with an example of this belief in Acts 14:11 when God healed a crippled man through Paul and Barnabas:

Yep!! Just like you try to make Jesus your God so have others in the past!!!

"When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they cried out in Lycaonian, "The gods have come down to us in human form."

You post as a child... Caino! No brighter than those who tried to build a temple to both Paul and Barnabas thousands of years ago!!! You know not... Jesus, nor Paul as you only refer to as...Saul ! yet silent on Barnabas

oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Caino]

WRONG!!! :think:

Now let’s take a look at one of the many verses that speak of God raising Jesus.

Acts 2:32 states:"God raised this Jesus"


Who raised this Jesus? ... Yes... GOD! Notice that it does not say "the Father," but "God." Unless we discard every known rule of language, we can see that Jesus is not included in the term God. Another point to be made is that God is alive and Jesus is dead. God is raising Jesus from the dead. As Timothy pointed out before, God is immortal, He cannot die. Jesus on the other hand is DEAD. :think:

If you believe Jesus to be God, then it is obvious that Jesus was never truly dead because he did in fact raise himself from the dead. A huge problem arises with this absurd idea in that the forgiveness of our sins comes only through the death of Jesus Christ as the Bible states. If Jesus is God then there was no real death because Jesus is raising Jesus. Do you think that the Bible is wrong or that the creeds that were created by men that made Jesus God are wrong? Someone is wrong, the question is who, the writers of the Bible or the writers of the creeds? This idea of a dual nature comes from Greek philosophy, it is called Dualism.


Dualism - The view that reality may be divided into two essential forces. There are two forms of this understanding. From a cosmic perspective, the world struggles between two opposing forces - typically, one of evil and one of good. From a philosophical approach, the essence of a person is divided between two incompatible natures - that of the body and that of the soul. Early Christianity incorporated both views from those religions and philosophies with which it came in contact. This is the same concept used not only in Greek philosophy, but also in Greek mythology. Hercules is the son of Zeus and the mortal Alcmene. He had a dual nature, he was a man that had supernatural strength which he inherited from his father Zeus. The Pharaohs were godmen and so were the Caesars. The Bible even provides us with an example of this belief in Acts 14:11 when God healed a crippled man through Paul and Barnabas:

Yep!! Just like you try to make Jesus your God so have others in the past!!!

"When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they cried out in Lycaonian, "The gods have come down to us in human form."

You post as a child... Caino! No brighter than those who tried to build a temple to both Paul and Barnabas thousands of years ago!!! You know not... Jesus, nor Paul as you only refer to as...Saul ! yet silent on Barnabas

oly::sherlock:
Paul

In order to discredit Jesus you avoid his frank statememt. Jesus is God, he taught that he had the power to lay down his mortal life and the power to take it up again which he did. He allowed his mortal tabernacle to be killed and then returned, his apostles were shocked even though he told them he would.

The eternal, divine Jesus never has and never will die. Only the temporary flesh that he took on died.

The truth is you ignore Jesus for human speculation Thomas.