young girl tells "friend" to kill himself. Is she responsible?

[PureX]

The law cannot be a substitute or guardian for true righteousness. There are many nasty and misguided people in the world but you can't expect the law to deal with all of them. You have to learn to deal with them yourself. It may even be that your desire to see the law deal with them and make them responsible is really an expression of your own unwillingness to take responsibility. It's a bit like the junior school tell-tale who is always grassing their classmates to the teachers.

I agree.

And I also find it puzzling that we want to hold this woman accountable for supposedly talking someone else into committing suicide when we would not hold her accountable for talking someone else into robbing a bank, or raping a child, or beating a spouse. Somehow, as long as this someone else was 'talked into' harming others, he must be held responsible for his own actions, but because he harms himself, he is not to be held responsible, and therefor someone else must be.

I'm really puzzled by this thinking. And I'm wondering what's driving it.

 

[Granite]

Would some people who are at the end of their tether still be alive if not for an extra push given to them?

 

[GFR7]

I agree.

And I also find it puzzling that we want to hold this woman accountable for supposedly talking someone else into committing suicide when we would not hold her accountable for talking someone else into robbing a bank, or raping a child, or beating a spouse. Somehow, as long as this someone else was 'talked into' harming others, he must be held responsible for his own actions, but because he harms himself, he is not to be held responsible, and therefor someone else must be.

I'm really puzzled by this thinking. And I'm wondering what's driving it.

I think at this point in our society, she would in fact be held accountable for encouraging him to rape, rob, etc. The US criminal justice system is far more invasive and Draconian than it was in the 1970s or so. I told Angel the story of a fifteen year old girl who saw her friend raped at a party but did nothing to stop it - the Prosecution was considering charges against her.

 

[Desert Reign]

I agree.

And I also find it puzzling that we want to hold this woman accountable for supposedly talking someone else into committing suicide when we would not hold her accountable for talking someone else into robbing a bank, or raping a child, or beating a spouse. Somehow, as long as this someone else was 'talked into' harming others, he must be held responsible for his own actions, but because he harms himself, he is not to be held responsible, and therefor someone else must be.

I'm really puzzled by this thinking. And I'm wondering what's driving it.

Obviously encouraging someone to rob a bank is encouraging them to commit a crime. Because suicide is not a crime then encouraging someone to commit it is not a crime either.
It doesn't change the fact that such a person is nasty and evil and she should be made to understand that by her peers. As I said, there is no need to make everything a crime. Otherwise there would be no room for righteous people to shine like the sun. The law isn't about shining like the sun, it is just about providing society with enough security to function well as a society. Too many laws stifles people and society ceases to function well, which is not what is intended to happen.

 

[Granite]

Obviously encouraging someone to rob a bank is encouraging them to commit a crime. Because suicide is not a crime then encouraging someone to commit it is not a crime either.
It doesn't change the fact that such a person is nasty and evil and she should be made to understand that by her peers. As I said, there is no need to make everything a crime. Otherwise there would be no room for righteous people to shine like the sun. The law isn't about shining like the sun, it is just about providing society with enough security to function well as a society. Too many laws stifles people and society ceases to function well, which is not what is intended to happen.

Uh, actually suicide's considered a crime in many jurisdictions...

 

[Town Heretic]

The law cannot be a substitute or guardian for true righteousness. There are many nasty and misguided people in the world but you can't expect the law to deal with all of them. You have to learn to deal with them yourself. It may even be that your desire to see the law deal with them and make them responsible is really an expression of your own unwillingness to take responsibility. It's a bit like the junior school tell-tale who is always grassing their classmates to the teachers.

Sure, we can't legislate actions against rude people or bad bosses, by way of...but this isn't something like that. When people are instrumental in a thing, from fighting words to inducement, we hold them accountable. And we should. That's what the D.A. is looking at or believes the evidence is showing him here.

 

[GFR7]

Sure, we can't legislate actions against rude people or bad bosses, by way of...but this isn't something like that. When people are instrumental in a thing, from fighting words to inducement, we hold them accountable. And we should. That's what the D.A. is looking at or believes the evidence is showing him here.

I think this is what I tried to persuade Angel of: The detectives and prosecutor examined over 1,000 texts, and believe that the girl was leading him step by step, giving him ideas, persuading him right up until the end. It wasn't simply a matter of not doing anything to help him......

As suicide is a crime in most states, she showed criminal intent, as an accessory.

What made them even more suspicious was the role she played in the aftermath of urging him on to his death: He was after all only a teen and had his whole life ahead of him to heal. He said he was afraid to die and to leave his family, and she still urged him to finish the deed.

Then she posts stuff like this:

 

[serpentdove]

I find this irrational need to assign blame, fascinating...

Because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold (Mt 24:11–12).

 

[serpentdove]

Not one of us is "to blame" but we are all accountable. Or should be anyway...

They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead (1 Pe 4:4–5).

 

[PureX]

I think at this point in our society, she would in fact be held accountable for encouraging him to rape, rob, etc. The US criminal justice system is far more invasive and Draconian than it was in the 1970s or so. I told Angel the story of a fifteen year old girl who saw her friend raped at a party but did nothing to stop it - the Prosecution was considering charges against her.

I think we have become a culture obsessed with blaming and punishing other people because we seem to imagine that if we can find someone to blame, and we punish them to the maximum degree, then we will be 'safe' from any similar misfortunes.

Fear is fueling an obsessive rush to judgment.

I think it's why stories like these cause so many people to instantly want to assign responsibility. And why we see the constant outcry for maximum punishments for all crimes all the time.

The problem, though, is this that this obsession of ours seeks to oversimplify everything, and view every instance in absolutist 'black and white' terms. And this is not only unrealistic, it's deliberately dishonest. It's a form of willful ignorance and that always spells trouble for us in the end. We end up with 'kangaroo courts' and 'vigilante justice' and a society that's more dangerous than before it lost control trying to control everything and everyone.

 

[GFR7]

I think we have become a culture obsessed with blaming and punishing other people because we seem to imagine that if we can find someone to blame, and we punish them to the maximum degree, then we will be 'safe' from any similar misfortunes.

Fear is fueling an obsessive rush to judgment.

I think it's why stories like these cause so many people to instantly want to assign responsibility. And why we see the constant outcry for maximum punishments for all crimes all the time.

The problem, though, is this that this obsession of ours seeks to oversimplify everything, and view every instance in absolutist 'black and white' terms. And this is not only unrealistic, it's deliberately dishonest. It's a form of willful ignorance and that always spells trouble for us in the end. We end up with 'kangaroo courts' and 'vigilante justice' and a society that's more dangerous than before it lost control trying to control everything and everyone.

I agree with your analysis, and there's too much litigation and prosecution in general. In light of the times we're in, this case makes sense. In light of former times, it absolutely doesn't. So it is a symptom and consequence of our current litigation culture. That said, it is unusual behavior on the part of the girl. You would expect her to be more caring.

 

[PureX]

I agree with your analysis, and there's too much litigation and prosecution in general. In light of the times we're in, this case makes sense. In light of former times, it absolutely doesn't. So it is a symptom and consequence of our current litigation culture. That said, it is unusual behavior on the part of the girl. You would expect her to be more caring.

There is a form of mental illness, well known, that causes this sort of behavior. Just as there is another form of mental illness that causes people to be severely depressed and unable to think and reason on their own behalf.

These illnesses are not 'new'. They have been with us all along. All that's new, here, is that we can identify them, now, if we wanted to. And we can treat them.

But it seems that many of us do not want to. Because what we want to do is blame and punish the "bad person". And the idea that they may be mentally ill tends to muddy up that course of action.

 

[GFR7]

There is a form of mental illness, well known, that causes this sort of behavior. Just as there is another form of mental illness that causes people to be severely depressed and unable to think and reason on their own behalf.

These illnesses are not 'new'. They have been with us all along. All that's new, here, is that we can identify them, now, if we wanted to. And we can treat them.

But it seems that many of us do not want to. Because what we want to do is blame and punish the "bad person". And the idea that they may be mentally ill tends to muddy up that course of action.

It had crossed my mind that she, too, might be mentally ill. I wonder if her defense will touch upon this? :think:

 

[PureX]

It had crossed my mind that she, too, might be mentally ill. I wonder if her defense will touch upon this? :think:

She hasn't even been charged, except by everyone here. And I doubt she will be, because proving a motive would be difficult, and her 'crime' depends completely on there being one.

This is similar to charging a hate speaker with complicity for crimes his hate speech "inspired". The difficulty is proving that he knew the crime would occur as a result of his speech, and intended the perpetrator to commit it.

 

[Granite]

She seems pretty indifferent to human life, bottom line.

 

[Town Heretic]

She hasn't even been charged, except by everyone here.

Unless I've been reading the wrong case you're mistaken and she's already released on bond. She's been charged with involuntary manslaughter. If you're talking about Michelle Carter you're behind the news.

And I doubt she will be, because proving a motive would be difficult, and her 'crime' depends completely on there being one.

This is similar to charging a hate speaker with complicity for crimes his hate speech "inspired". The difficulty is proving that he knew the crime would occur as a result of his speech, and intended the perpetrator to commit it.

It always comes back to a reasonable man standard, absent mitigation in terms of capacity. If someone tells you how they're going about killing themself and that they're having second thoughts and you say, "Get back in there" then it doesn't bode well for you with a jury, on the face of it.

Or as the D.A. put it:

"Instead of attempting to assist (Conrad) or notify his family or school officials, Ms. Carter is alleged to have strongly influenced his decision to take his own life, encouraged him to commit suicide and guided him in his engagement of activities which led to his death."

 

[TomO]

She seems pretty indifferent to human life, bottom line.

Yes, but is it a depraved indifference?

 

[PureX]

"Instead of attempting to assist (Conrad) or notify his family or school officials, Ms. Carter is alleged to have strongly influenced his decision to take his own life, encouraged him to commit suicide and guided him in his engagement of activities which led to his death."

This is unprovable. She may have acted unreasonably, but proving that MADE him act as he did is just not possible.

 

[TomO]

This is unprovable. She may have acted unreasonably, but proving that MADE him act as he did is just not possible.

"Depraved indifference focuses on the risk created by the defendant’s conduct, not the injuries actually resulting."

http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/depraved-indifference/

 

[GFR7]

She hasn't even been charged, except by everyone here. And I doubt she will be, because proving a motive would be difficult, and her 'crime' depends completely on there being one.

This is similar to charging a hate speaker with complicity for crimes his hate speech "inspired". The difficulty is proving that he knew the crime would occur as a result of his speech, and intended the perpetrator to commit it.

Say, what???? :jawdrop:

Bristol DA's office can continue to prosecute Michelle Carter case

NEW BEDFORD — The Bristol County District Attorney's office can continue to prosecute an 18-year-old charged with encouraging a Mattapoisett teen to commit suicide last year, a district court judge has ruled.

Judge Siobhan E. Foley denied the defense motion in the case of Michelle Carter of Plainville who was charged with involuntary manslaughter in the suicide of Conrad Roy III in Fairhaven on July 13, 2014.

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/article/20150604/NEWS/150609651